[ExI] Who has a vote that counts?

Fri Jul 31 21:41:30 UTC 2020

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 31, 2020, at 3:58 PM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> 
>> You hope this attitude doesn’t spread? That must be a very large rock friend.
>> I a missing the metaphor here.  Living under a rock, maybe?
>> 
>> 100% of under 30s I have met both online and IRL agree with the sentiment that it’s all ultimately pointless and horrible. Some do a better job ignoring it day-to-day compared to others.
> Do any of these people have a good job?  Happily married?  College education?  These people do exist, you know.  I have to doubt that if they have these things they are as depressed as the ones who may be stuck to their computers (which a lot of people need to get away from, I think.  Maybe you just don't know many of these people.)
>> 

Only 1-2 people I know have nice jobs but more than half of them have college educations. 

Most of the people who I know that are married are Mormon, and they generally have a positive outlook regardless of marital status. 

>> Even before the pandemic, under 30s have experienced profound isolation, extended adolescence, a plethora of parasocial relationships and a dearth of real ones, overwhelming screentime, lack of personal relationships. 
> How can you blame these things on society?  Especially extended adolescence - that is all up the person.  It reads like a bunch of lazy sluggards to me, who won't help themselves and are still living at home.  Good friends are something you have to seek and friendship you have to work at. 

Extended adolescence is LITERALLY caused by society, specifically helicopter parenting.

How do you expect children to make real friends if their main relationships are parasocial and the rest are mediated by social media, while playing with other kids required predetermined “play dates”? 

>> 
>> Decline of religiousity means decreased social networks and lack of meaning in life, lack of opportunities to both give and receive altruism. 
> It sounds as if those people need a crutch.  Society is not forcing anyone to be less religious.  If they can't find a meaning in life, maybe they could work at being a better person.  That's enough meaning for most of us.  I also have to doubt that people cannot find ways to help the needy of all flavors.  There are plenty of charitable organizations where you can volunteer.  Some specious logic here.

I think you have an overly optimistic view of people. Society isn’t forcing people to become religious, but the majority of society is less religious. 

I think you’re absolutely missing the point of what religion offers people. If you can’t see the difference between an entire community network of mutual aid and a “charitable orzanization” then I’m not really sure what to tell you.

>> 
>> Constant movement both within cities and across nations prevents a sense of community. 
>> Again, you can't blame this on society.

Again, this is caused by increased technology, and lack of local work opportunities. People have to move to find better jobs.

>> 
>> Decline of cultural monoliths means lack of shared popular culture. Job opportunities are poor, housing is expensive, and university debt is suffocating.
> I am not sure what a cultural monolith is.  It seems to me that there are so many cultures out there, esp. in pop music, that if you can't find a niche you are just too picky.  I fully agree about jobs, which have been underpaid for many years (while the rich get richer).  And college debt is a national disgrace. 

Finding a niche is exactly the OPPOSITE of a cultural monolith. A monolith is something every watches, reads, hears, or does. People need a common ground and a monolith (Dallas, the Beatles, Elvis) provides a that. 

>> 
>> Regardless of the material facts of the situation, poor opportunities and lack of community coupled with a lack of leadership create a trifecta of human emotional misery. 
> Just who is supposed to provide leadership for your personal life?  Politicians?  Rock stars?  TV gurus? What happened to family and friends? 

Anyone CAN provide it. 

Our current politicians aren’t really doing a great job.

With the fragmentation of popular culture, no one listens to the same pop star or guru.

People don’t have friends and disagree with their families, or aren’t close to them.

You keep acting like I’m blaming “society” as a whole. “Society” doesn’t actually exist. It is the sum of human actions in a given geographical area. If the trends didn’t exist, there would be nothing to talk about. 

The trends I’m talking about are real and if you want me to dig up actual links in order to see what is very clear to basically all young people, I suppose I can.

I don’t think you appreciate the psychological impact of technology and changing social values on young people while they were growing up. I want you to really imagine it. 

How do you talk to your friends? How often do you see your family? How much attention do you get from parents? Are you allowed to go outside? What do you do, other than school? How does school work? What is your plan for not getting shot? And so on. You tell me what you think an average pre-pandemic day looks like for a 10 year-old, 15 year-old, 20-year old. Compare that to what you experienced growing up.

You can’t deny human psychology until you have some way to alter it. And we don’t.

SR Ballard

> bill w 
>> The WWs in the US did not suffer from those. The Depression was a somewhat mixed bag in that regard. 
>> 
>> People can be happy regardless of their material poverty as long as they have a strong sense of community and goals. Even if that goal is just “don’t let my family starve”. 
>> 
>> SR Ballard
>> 
>>> On Jul 31, 2020, at 9:53 AM, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> We younger people have very little hope for the future.   will
>>> 
>>> Have you heard of the self-fulfilling prophecy?  Of course you have. My parents lived through two WWs and a deep Depression.  I never heard them say that any of that ruined their lives.  You just did what you had to do and moved on.  We were lower middle class.  Didn't have a lot but bought new cars and always had food on the table.  And so on.  
>>> 
>>> I hope your attitude doesn't spread.  Last thing we need is a national emotional depression.  Of course most of us will grieve if the election doesn't go our way, but honestly, we have lived through the last four years and could live through four more years - not happy, but surviving and trying to make our personal lives mean something.  That's all we really can control:  our own lives.  Don't give up on them.
>>> 
>>> bill w
>>> 
>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 9:45 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>> Apathy, disgust with two party system, hopelessness.
>>>> 
>>>> It may be harder to understand for older people.
>>>> 
>>>> We younger people have very little hope for the future.  While you guys were excited for the future as kids, young adults, and beyond, we have no hope.  Geopolitical instability is increasing, there are pandemics, climate change, and increasingly polarized and violent populations in many countries.  We are so salty at this that at times we literally no longer care what happens, and would rather 'watch the world burn' out of spite and the fact that said burning seems inevitable at this point.  The world is more fucked up than it was last time there was severe global shake-up (WWII) but now there are far more nukes and nuclear countries, worse weather, far worse wealth inequality, more densely clustered living areas leading to unrest and disease.  
>>>> 
>>>> So the basic idea is 'it's already fucked, may as well make my disappointment clear.'  
>>>> 
>>>> For older people, Trump getting elected or not may determine whether the entire rest of your life is calm or is full of strife.  For us, strife is pretty much guaranteed at some point.  In fact, will hastening it in some way get us out the other side more quickly?  A kind of 'just get it over with already' perspective.
>>>> 
>>>> So--if the thing to avoid is horrible strife at some point in one's life, we don't see the election of Trump as really having a bearing on that.  It will come sooner or later.  Even if Biden is elected, it seems easy to believe that the world will still get worse even during his tenure, surveillance and wealth gap will increase, more pandemics, more natural disasters, more war.
>>>> 
>>>> John--that's why.  Because when you have 80 more years to live, it can seem like it doesn't matter either way.
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe Trump losing will initiate a renaissance of compassion, technological improvement for the better of humankind, knowledge-gathering, and wealth redistribution.  But more likely than not it will just be a brief positive bump, if even that.  Or just a not-as-bad negative.
>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 6:19 AM John Clark via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 31, 2020 at 12:19 AM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> > I live in PA, so my vote definitely counts a lot. I actually agree with John not only that voting in safe states will likely matter in what happens, but also that voting for Biden specifically will be more important than just voting against Trump, because Biden will be helped by tallies the same way Trump is hurt by them.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Good.
>>>>> 
>>>>>> > That being said, I still haven't convinced myself to vote for Biden instead of just not voting this year like I have been planning on.  Idk
>>>>> 
>>>>> I've tried, I've really tried, but I just don't understand that attitude. What on Earth is the downside to voting against a fascist who has put the constitution in mortal danger?!
>>>>> 
>>>>>  John K Clark
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