[ExI] that's why

Mon Jun 8 16:00:43 UTC 2020

We are always going to need people to meet fire with fire.  Violent people
won't stop just because you ask them too.  They have to be arrested and
contained.  I agree that cops often incite violence where there was no
threat of it before.  I see no reason for cops to go to a school unless
weapons are seen or are being used.  Send in the social workers!

I see no reason why cops should show up at protests in riot gear.  If the
situation turns nasty, with shooting and looting, then you will have kept
the riot gear cops nearby in reserve for just that reason.  Routine
protests should not find rifles in the hands of anyone.  Why should a
protestor show up with guns?  Who are they going to shoot?  Cops?  We don't
need protestors who want 'death by cop'.

I like the idea of the protestors policing the looters, but think most
won't do it, and looters will have weapons, so this is a job for cops, I am
afraid.

As for the mentally ill, perhaps police departments could have psychiatric
workers on call or on the payroll to go to incidents involving the mentally
ill.  When cops show up for that they only have one thing to use:  a gun.
I read where tasers just don't often work.  Take along someone who knows
what to do with mental patients.  If you get combative with them, they'll
get combative with you.  I worked as an aide for three months in a big
mental hospital, so I do know something about this.  But you do have to
watchout for the paranoids, who will often have a weapon - then it's the
cops who have to deal with it.   bill w

Complete retraining for all cops starting now.  But who would retrain
them?  Same old same old?  Maybe professors in criminal justice have some
ideas (don't they always?), and some might even be good.  Professors aren't
always lost in the ivory tower.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 10:37 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> There's a basic structural problem with policing, as an institution. It is
> fundamentally the wrong solution for many of the tasks we've handed over to
> it.
>
>
> "Part of our misunderstanding about the nature of policing is we keep
> imagining that we can turn police into social workers. That we can make
> them nice, friendly community outreach workers. But police are violence
> workers. That's what distinguishes them from all other government
> functions. ... They have the legal capacity to use violence in situations
> where the average citizen would be arrested.
>
> So when we turn a problem [i.e. homelessness, mental health, narcotics
> abuse, disruptive behavior in schools, etc] over to the police to manage,
> there will be violence, because those are ultimately the tools that they
> are most equipped to utilize: handcuffs, threats, guns, arrests. That's
> what really is at the root of policing. So if we don't want violence, we
> should try to figure out how to not get the police involved."
>
>
>
> https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2020/06/03/457251670/how-much-do-we-need-the-police
>
>
>
>
> https://www.amazon.com/End-Policing-Alex-S-Vitale-ebook/dp/B01I85OOZA/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 9:09 AM SR Ballard via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Completely agree.
>>
>> SR Ballard
>>
>> On Jun 8, 2020, at 7:07 AM, Dave Sill via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2020 at 12:19 AM Stathis Papaioannou via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> They are proposing replacing the existing police force with a better one:
>>>
>>> “In Minneapolis and in cities across the US, it is clear that our system
>>> of policing is not keeping our communities safe,” said Lisa Bender, the
>>> Minneapolis city council president, at the event. “Our efforts at
>>> incremental reform have failed, period. Our commitment is to do what’s
>>> necessary to keep every single member of our community safe and to tell the
>>> truth: that the Minneapolis police are not doing that. Our commitment is to
>>> end policing as we know it and to recreate systems of public safety that
>>> actually keep us safe.”
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/07/minneapolis-city-council-defund-police-george-floyd
>>>
>>> Even the poorest, most deprived states in the world generally find the
>>> resources to maintain a police force.
>>>
>>
>> The problems with policing in the US are pretty well-known:
>>
>> - too-strong police unions - bad actors rarely punished by the police
>> force
>> - qualified immunity - bad actors rarely punished in civil court
>> - militarization - military weapons and equipment without real need or
>> proper training
>> - excessive use of force - see https://8cantwait.org/
>> - culture of disrespect for citizens - us vs. them mentality instead of
>> "protect & serve"
>> - too many victimless crime laws - the Drug War does more harm than good
>> - attracts bad actors - if you're racist and/or you want to be a badass,
>> it's the place to work
>> etc.
>>
>> Starting with a clean slate might fix some of them but it won't fix all
>> of them.
>>
>> Politicians have to stand up to the unions. Congress has to end qualified
>> immunity (there's a bill in the House now). Transfer of military equipment
>> to police needs to stop. I think every use of force or allegation of
>> wrongdoing by an officer should be reviewed by a citizen's review board
>> empowered to recommend disciplinary actions, criminal charges, or firing,
>> and these results should be a permanent part of every officer's record.
>> State and federal governments will have to decriminalize drugs.
>>
>> -Dave
>>
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