[ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann brains)

Re Rose rocket at earthlight.com
Thu May 7 16:24:30 UTC 2020

To Darin, I think these are interesting legal points, as I would not want
to be battling with a slew of uploads as to who gets to live my life and
who gets to be my slave - or die.

To John, I think you've gotten to technological magic, and I do not believe
in any case that we either live in a simulation or that we would be happy
in one. I don't think a simulation will ever get creative enough to be
human (ok, don't talk to me about Alpha GO. I can take either side of that
argument, but overall I think this side has more logical points).

We've come a long way since ELISA, by now we have all seen algorithms that
find unexpected and innovative solutions, like the chatbots who designed
their own language, or the machines self-playing old Atari games that found
ways to get superhuman scores by twisting the rules of the game. But even
in those cases you can see the innovation came from non-human computer
abilities, like iterative speed; or by setting unrealistic goal states.

In any case I do not care to come back in a simulation or game, to me that
would be the antithesis of being human~

To Ben, if he or anyone else is actually reading this far down, that's an
interesting idea, that the agent body would accomodate to the brain. I like
it! However - its calling on technology that is not defined in any way, so
I have to call it out as magic too at the moment. Unknown if its possible,
or if a newly uploaded brain would have any ability to direct the design of
an agent body. I've seen Hod Lifson's "spidery robot" and that thing is
unable to map its body very well at all, and, well....I'd just rather not
walk like that  :)

I stand by my hormone objection, as I think it would be difficult to
re-entrain all the hormone cycles in a person. While jet lag, hunger
(insulin) cycles, etc are simple and easily re-entrained, many others are
not (PCOS, mood disorders, some infertility, and estrogen dominant migraine
are a few that come to mind easily, there are others), and we can't forget
that the hormone cycles interact - another level of feedback. Reproduction
of chaotic systems is notoriously difficult as they are STIC (sensitive to
initial conditions). AFAIK that problem has not been solved except by
mapping the system grossly  into stable regimes, and finding ways to force
a system from one regime to another, which has been a difficult class of
engineering problems to solve. Perhaps when we can do that for people with
migraines or PCOS or similar, we can reconsider this issue in the light of



Message: 4
Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 13:43:20 -0400
From: John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data (was: Subject: Boltzmann
        <CAJPayv3UNXv+sAp8CqMf4ympKasty=BBpsZXjL04ssgN6QRcsw at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Wed, May 6, 2020 at 10:58 AM Darin Sunley via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

*>Which copy wins the philosophical claim of "being" "me" doesn't worry me.*

Me neither. As far as I'm concerned the more people that remember being me
right now the better.

> *Which one wins the legal claims of "gets to lock the other copies of me
> out of the house I'm living in now", "gets to continue the relationship I
> have with my employer right now",*

When technology becomes advanced enough to duplicate something as advanced
as a human then they can duplicate anything, even land because you'll
almost certainly be a upload living in a virtual world (if the kind people
who took the time to revive you know you'd be upset by that knowledge they
just won't tell you), and that means economic questions that we think are
so important today would be pretty much moot. I'm not saying a revived
Cryonics patient won't have problems adjusting, but none of the problems
will be as severe as the problem of nonexistence. And that's why I'm signed
up for Cryonics, I'll deal with the problems.


Message: 5
Date: Wed, 6 May 2020 20:21:32 +0100
From: Ben Zaiboc <ben at zaiboc.net>
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] Essential Upload Data
Message-ID: <f93f1db4-fa9b-6077-2568-17cf710e201f at zaiboc.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

On 05/05/2020 17:56, Re Rose wrote:
> don't think this will solve the essential problem. I think any upload
> is problematic. I believe there are two problems that will be really
> hard to solve: first, preserving the cyclic, dynamical environment of
> non-neural information available in the body such as hormonal cycles
> or feedback from non-neural neurotransmitters (such as from your gut)
> is difficult, with no solution on the horizon. Second, your cortex is
> specifically wired to accomodate your body, with all its quirks,
> balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and tics. Every human body is
> different and each body's cortex learns the characteristics of that
> body. While we know the cortex is nearly infinitely able to accomodate
> and learn, learning an entirely new corporeal system may not only
> overwhelm it, but the being that emerges after this process is highly
> likely to?not be "you".

I think the clue here is in "your cortex is specifically wired to
accomodate your body, with all its quirks, balances, habits,
accomodations, skillz, and tics". If the cortex is uploaded
successfully, then the upload will contain all the information needed to
reproduce these 'quirks, balances, habits, accomodations, skillz, and
tics'. The emulated body would take this information, and reproduce the
environment that the cortex expects. A bit like a mould, it doesn't
matter if you have a positive or a negative impression, you have the
same information, and can produce the opposite piece.

As for the cyclic, dynamical environment, I don't see how that would be
a problem. I've suffered from severe jet-lag before, it didn't make me a
different person, and I soon recovered from it. And as we are all
basically the same, the detailed differences wouldn't be significant.
Certainly not as significant as you are saying, so as to make you a
different person.

"PS - what would be *really* nice is to save an uploaded copy of the
brain along with the crypreserved?body so that any damage to the
information in the brain due to the cryopreservation process can be
repaired using the upload as a backup. You would have your original
body, complete with all its information, plus a brain backup for repair
of any neuronal information loss. Yay! Sign me up, please -R"

I don't understand this.

If you already had an uploaded copy of the brain, there would be no
point in having a cryopreserved original. There would be no point in the
cryopreservation in the first place, if we could create the upload
without it.

The point of cryopreservation is that we can't upload brains yet, so
it's a way of preserving the information until we can. Once we can
upload wet brains, no-one would bother with cryopreservation (assuming
the upload process wouldn't destroy the brain, which it probably would).

Ben Zaiboc

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