[ExI] for classical music lovers only

William Flynn Wallace foozler83 at gmail.com
Fri Oct 30 21:55:50 UTC 2020 

To the complete disgust of most of the classical music world. symphony
concerts are multi-genre now.  Laser shows, rock groups - just anything to
get people into the seats.

A famous violinist,Perlman,  said that the Brahms' violin concerto was not
meant to be played 500 times.  He had quit his solo career, performing the
big concert pieces.  He said that he had said all he wanted to say about
those works and was now going to try different things (Yoyo Ma has done the
same thing).

But traditional symphony concerts play the stand stuff:  Beethoven's Fifth
and so on.  People expect that.  But that is and has been for quite some
time contrary to tradition.  People in 1850, for example, 23 years after
Beethoven's death, expected to hear the latest thing, not the old stuff.

So 50 years ago they started including the new stuff - wildly dissonant,
polyrhythmic - many just said ugly music.  Never caught on except with
academics. So naturally people began to stop going.  When I was still going
the percentage of gray and white heads was large.  Thus some tried to lure
young people in with trendy, pop things, and that resulted in the loss of
some of the gray heads.

Classical music,mostly European music, is now Asian.  Most of the young
artists are Asian, playing the old standard European works like Chopin and
SChumann.

So it's a hard dilemma for the programmers of American concerts.  Include
the 12 tone row, aleatoric music, and lose audiences.  Include the old
standards and lose people who think like Perlman - they want to hear new
stuff.  After maybe Shostakovich there are no giants in classical music.
None.  I wonder myself where they went.  Some think Ades is a genius.  I
think you could cut up his music and paste it back together in a different
order and it would be just as good - or bad.  No form.  No tunes.  Sounds
like it was written the same time it was played - improvisation.  I could
go on.

bill w

On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 4:28 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Does that mean that symphony concerts are classical?
>
> I ask because there have been an increasing number of symphony concerts of
> video game music lately - and I suspect you would not define most video
> game music as "classical".  See for example
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrpWBgB6oz8 .
>
> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 2:15 PM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> I don't think anyone would say that anything by Tschaikovsky was not
>> classical.  One of the few works that is truly popular with people who
>> would never attend a symphony concert.  Which is sad - I would love to play
>> some music for those doubters that I guarantee they would like.  Most
>> people don't know that tunesmiths like Rachmaninoff and Chopin wrote music
>> that was used in many movies from the 30s and 40 mainly.   bill w
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 2:32 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Does Nutcracker count as a classical opera?  That's my go-to example of
>>> a stage play where there are no lyrics one must understand to understand
>>> what's happening: the plot is presented through costumes, or sometimes
>>> through programs explicitly handed out to the audience so they can follow
>>> along.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 12:17 PM Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I noted, you originally limited it to the past 20 years.  I take it
>>>> as obvious that "classical" is mutually contradictory with such a recent
>>>> time frame, so I thought you were seeking to step out of strictly classical
>>>> stuff.
>>>>
>>>> Ironic that you note your experience with opera.  I have much the same
>>>> problem - but in my case, I perceive that one is meant to understand and
>>>> enjoy the words as the primary thing, with the tonal presentation merely
>>>> being an enhancement.  If I can not understand the words, then I can not
>>>> understand what people are doing on stage - and they're usually not
>>>> dancing, or otherwise visually presenting in a way that would go along with
>>>> audio where voice is more of a musical instrument than a conveyor of
>>>> meaning.  For this reason, I tend to shun classical opera, as I can not
>>>> enjoy it.  (Where the voice is just an instrument, I can enjoy that.  Where
>>>> the words are clear, I can enjoy that.  But not where there are words that
>>>> are supposed to be understood - and where this is more important than the
>>>> music, if any - but the vocals are incomprehensible.  This does not seem to
>>>> be due to any identifiable hearing deficit, which leaves me wondering if
>>>> people who claim to enjoy classical opera are able to understand the lyrics
>>>> as sung - or perhaps if they have cheats, such as printouts or prior
>>>> knowledge of the lyrics, which they forget to mention because "any true fan
>>>> should already know these things", which is a type of barrier to entry that
>>>> I have seen in multiple other fandoms.)
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tAbhrDUrqM is an example of "has
>>>> voice but only as an instrument, not words" that I listen to sometimes.
>>>> (Partly since I have a minor personal connection to the game this is part
>>>> of the soundtrack of.)
>>>>
>>>> I sometimes listen to classical purely instrumental music, but only for
>>>> "good + purely instrumental", not caring about "classical".
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:13 AM William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat
>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Adrian -I listened. Classical??  You listen to this sort of thing on a
>>>>> daily basis?  Have you ever been in therapy? This is music that is
>>>>> primarily about the words.  The music was probably made up when the band
>>>>> got together to put words to music, much like commercials and Nashville
>>>>> country music.  My hearing deficit does not permit me, usually, to even
>>>>> understand the words, regardless of volume.  So it's like opera music sung
>>>>> in Italian:  I really don't care what is being said.  It's mostly soap
>>>>> opera anyway.  The joy is in the sound of the voice and accompanying music
>>>>> -using the voice as just another instrument which could even be singing
>>>>> lalalalala.  bill w
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 11:56 AM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog was a notable production within that
>>>>>> timespan, that conveyed a lot but not all of its plot through its songs.
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp_hlaXcniY&list=PL78B0B3p_qZQPO8VVNTRf6wSDP9ebIoTQ
>>>>>> has the playlist (plus two non-song entries, which you can ignore for this
>>>>>> exercise).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The second LEGO Movie might be interesting to do this exercise with
>>>>>> too.  Soundtrack at
>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUEbWo1uIrg&list=PL5uTL9oHnU9gbfDveKd1kVKcXwydBb-1i
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Granted, neither of these is particularly "old", but you limited it
>>>>>> to the past 20 years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 30, 2020 at 9:42 AM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>> extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You  know, I have had this thought:  what if we heard the movie
>>>>>>> music before we saw the movie?  After seeing the movie, we will have visual
>>>>>>> images to go with most of the music, memory allowing.  ("I go to the
>>>>>>> hills....."  Julie Andrews in an Alpine meadow)  The questions are:  can
>>>>>>> the music stand alone?  Will your like or dislike of the scenes the music
>>>>>>> accompanies influence your liking or disliking of the music?  I suppose a
>>>>>>> test could be listening to old movie music whose movie you have not seen.
>>>>>>> Or maybe someone in the group can tell me a movie they liked, and I can
>>>>>>> listen to the score - or part of it, at least, should be on Youtube - an
>>>>>>> invaluable resource.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I have seen practically nothing in the last 20 years or so, so
>>>>>>> please recommend a score.  (thanks Stuart)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> bill w
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 7:56 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bill Wallace wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 29, 2020 at 3:36 PM William Flynn Wallace via
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat
>>>>>>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>> > I am at the point where I think I know just about every piece up
>>>>>>>> until
>>>>>>>> > about 1900 or maybe 1930 that I like.  So after that I am looking
>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>> > new music to buy.  I get the American Record Guide and buy CDs
>>>>>>>> > based on reviews and have a success rate of maybe 10%.  The
>>>>>>>> > others I give away.
>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>> > So, I am interested in finding out from other classical music
>>>>>>>> lovers
>>>>>>>> > who, since 1900, has become a favorite whose music I might like.
>>>>>>>> If
>>>>>>>> > a composer is famous I very likely know all I need to know about
>>>>>>>> > him or her.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would get the musical scores from the Star Wars movies performed
>>>>>>>> by
>>>>>>>> the Los Angeles Philharmonic. In so far as classical music can be
>>>>>>>> considered a genre instead of a musical period ending in the
>>>>>>>> 1800s,
>>>>>>>> then John Williams is one of the best modern classical music
>>>>>>>> composers. He is why the Star Wars movies are "space opera" instead
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> "space theater" or "space story".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stuart LaForge
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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