[ExI] book on cells - TMI !!!!

[William Flynn Wallace]

Well Ben, you describe a scenario where you upload a concert pianist and
get an AI that can play the hell out of chopsticks.  Details don't really
matter, eh?   bill

On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 2:58 AM Ben via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 20/02/2021 12:39, bill w wrote:
>
> The Secret Language of Cells - Jon Lieff
>
> I have never in my life read such a book.  Example:  I knew about glial
> cells and actually have mentioned them a few times in posts, reminding
> everyone that neurons aren't all there is up there.
>
> Little did I know:  thousands of different types, not only feeding
> neurons, as I knew but communicating with other glial cells, capillaries
> (which do far, far more than carry blood around), T and other immune cells,
> choroid-lining cells, and so on.  How many types of glia?  Thousands.
> Every progress in electron microscopes yields more types of brain cells.
>
> "Astrocyte signals are different in each brain region, and for each
> individual astrocyte.  In addition, signals can be different in each of the
> thousands of tiny protrusions on a single astrocyte."
>
> How many types of neurons?  Thousands.  How many types of
> neurotransmitters?  Thirty so far. Number of ways of communicating with
> other cells:  four so far.  1 - the well-known chemical communication at
> synapses, 2 - electrical communication with other neurons, 3 - electrical
> communication with other types of cells, 4 - signals taking place other
> than at the synapse.The first two have to occur together.
>
> Capillaries.  Vital building partners in all phases of tissue growth and
> management.  Sends signals to maintain normal metabolism; regulate the
> growth of all tissue cells; get directions from discussions (!) among stem
> cells, blood cells, tissue cells, and local neurons, call for immune
> response help in cases of infection and alerts T cells into action
> (chemical signals through the bloodstream).  When rebuilding damaged
> tissue, capillaries communicate with stem cells to avoid production of
> scars from excess fibers.
>
> Just carrying blood, huh!?
>
> Brain waves:  side effects of neurons firing, right? In part.  They can be
> signals from one part of the brain to another telling it that a message is
> coming, and then it does.
>
> Every paragraph contains content that could be studied all of one's life.
>
> What did I get out of it?  As I went along I saw how far we are from even
> thinking of anything like uploading a brain.  Every cell talks to more than
> one other type of cell and in numerous ways.
>
> Just totally overwhelming - stunning.  Usually I take a pencil and
> underline important parts.  Might as well underline everything.  And yet I
> could understand every word of it - written for the educated layman.
>
> I did not read every word.  No point to it.  Enormously influenced my
> ideas of brain function, and how long it will take to really get a handle
> on it, if we ever can do that.
>
> p.s. the author points out the fMRI does not measure neuronal activity,
> but blood flow
>
> bill w
>
>
>
> We could similarly observe the complexities of the structures of cellulose
> and hemicelluloste fibres, their interactions with lignin and other
> substances in wood, the many different grain patterns that show up, the
> many different physical and chemical interactions with other substances
> like metals and plastics, the physics and chemistry of wound steel strings,
> the enormous numbers and complexity of the wool fibres in felt, the ways
> that different types of glue behave in bonding felt to wood, the frictional
> properties of metal pegs in wooden holes, the physical properties of
> springs, and literally thousands of other completely relevant and important
> things that contribute to the structure and function of a piano, and
> conclude that, in view of all this complexity, making another piano is
> well-nigh impossible.
>
> The level of detail at which you study, understand and model a system is
> important.
> If we don't consider this before starting, we end up lost in impossible
> complexity, no matter what the system is. Even a spoon has many levels of
> detail, and what you want to do in relation to the spoon will determine
> which level you need to work at, what you need to understand: It might be
> Polymer Chemistry, Metallurgy, Engineering, Design, Ergonomics, etc. Nobody
> needs to use (or can realistically understand) them all.
>
> We don't yet know exactly what level of detail is needed to model a mind
> for the purposes of uploading, but it's unlikely to be so deep that we
> might as well give up the attempt before even starting. Just as an
> understanding of the physics of transistors isn't needed for writing
> computer programs, I think it's doubtful that an understanding of all the
> complex details of brain biology will be necessary for mind uploading.
> There will be a level of detail that is necessary and sufficient, we'll
> find out what it is, and we'll use it just as a musical instrument maker
> uses his knowledge of specific properties of certain woods and metals
> without needing to know anything about chemistry or quantum physics.
>
> --
> Ben Zaiboc
>
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