[ExI] 27 psychedelics??

William Flynn Wallace foozler83 at gmail.com
Tue Apr 26 13:49:29 UTC 2022

Complicating all drug research:  findings that indicate that psychedelic
drugs consumed in unfamiliar or lab-type circumstances produce
significantly lower levels of 'high' than the same doses taken in their
usual environment.  I don't know, but this might be true of prescription
drugs as well - and, I suggest, the findings might be just the opposite:
drugs taken in medical environments do better than the same drugs do at
home - placebo effects here likely in both cases.   I also seem to recall
that if doctors wear white coats they are taken more seriously (can't
remember the actual behavioral effects) than if they don't.  Rafal might

Case studies are not worthless.  They show, at least, that certain things
do occur in human beings.  They prove nothing but do lead us to form more
rational hypotheses.  bill w

On Mon, Apr 25, 2022 at 11:01 PM Rafal Smigrodzki via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 12:02 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> Nuala and Rafal--of course it wouldn't be tenable to take everything,
>> particularly stuff like you mentioned that needs a month to build up.  But
>> the experience is free, safe, and quick for many drugs.  I just don't
>> understand why someone who understands that getting information from
>> textbooks is good would also not conclude that getting information from
>> drug experiences themselves is good.
>> So basically I am just asking, why not?  Because you don't "need" it?
>> Need is subjective.  It certainly would improve your understanding.  And if
>> you elect not to do an easy, free, quick thing that would improve
>> understanding of your job, that just seems like fear or ignorance to me.
>> I vaguely agree that pharmaceuticals are often useful but I think they
>> are far overused in western medicine.  Much of what is accomplished with
>> drugs could be accomplished with counseling, education, physical/mental
>> therapy, yoga, meditation, etc, all of which have plenty of legitimate
>> backing in scientific literature.
>> Rafal, you say I don't know enough, but I have taken both amphetamine as
>> well as ziprasidone.  So I would say in the field of knowing what those
>> drugs feel like, I absolutely, constructively know more than you on that
>> front, because I simply have access to knowledge that you don't have.  And
>> all I'm saying is that it would be easy for you to fix this, try them, and
>> then your knowledge would be superior to mine.
>> I also think worship of certain types of scientific study is an error in
>> modern medicine.  Heck, we even write papers on "anecdotes", they're called
>> case studies.  The fact is that as rigorous as a study is, if it doesn't
>> ask a certain question, or look at a certain variable, the knowledge gained
>> on that axis is a big fat zero.  And I am saying that without knowing how
>> these drugs feel, there are variables you can't have knowledge of, and thus
>> can't study.  Often I read papers on drugs and find myself amazed that the
>> questions they are asking are so incorrect with relation to the experience
>> itself, particularly with psychedelics.  For this reason, Spike's chess
>> experiment is silly, but I would have a hard time explaining why to someone
>> who hasn't taken psychedelics, just like I would have a hard time
>> explaining certain statistical errors to someone who didn't understand
>> probability distributions and hypothesis testing.
>> Anyway I suppose we disagree in the sense that you seem to think taking
>> amphetamine, ziprasidone, &c. one time each, to gain information, is
>> somehow not worth it--a safety thing, I guess?  Which strikes me as
>> hypocritical in some way if you'd happily prescribe repeated doses of those
>> to someone.  Why not just try them?
> ### As I said, I think I don't need these medications. I am not
> ideologically opposed to using "substances" to experience new things and
> yes, I heard about the long-term beneficial effects of single psychedelic
> sessions which were reported recently. However the so far available
> information is sparse and definitive proof of improved life outcomes is
> lacking, as opposed to self-reported improvements in one's feelings about
> life. I am pretty sure I don't need neuroleptics. Maybe I could be more
> focused if I used amphetamine. Dunno.
> Would I be a better doctor if I tried Geodon and Adderall? I really doubt
> that.
> The thing is, I am actually pretty satisfied with myself, in a general
> feeling-of-the-world way. There are angers and frustrations that ruffle the
> surface of my mind but the depths are calm, and faintly luminous. Being
> Rafal Smigrodzki feels good. I know from two attempts that a bit of hash
> won't make it better.
> I am of the libertarian persuasion so of course I would not deny anybody
> the right to alter their minds using drugs of their choice but my own
> choice is, for now and pending additional information, no drugs for me.
> Rafal
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