[ExI] video which changed my perspective

[Will Steinberg]

@MB:

"Alcohol was tricky enough": there is this thinking that alcohol is somehow
not serious and other drugs are worse.  This couldn't be further from the
truth.  Alcohol, of course, is tricky--very addictive, easily available,
causes accidents, violence, health problems, toxicity, sexual assault,
other poor choices and violent actions.  Alcohol is one of the most harmful
drugs.  Psychedelics, dissociatives, marijuana, are all less 'tricky' than
alcohol in terms of social/self harm potential.  "That pit" you describe is
a pit of addiction and health issues, which psychedelics aren't really
implicated in.  Of course in the wrong setting they can be bad, but good
trips can be highly encouraged by the right environment and guru.

@Adrian:

" I know that it can be pleasurable in the moment.  It's what comes after
that moment that's the problem.  Mere pleasure can be had in far less
self-destructive ways.":  What exactly are we talking about?  Your comment
makes sense for booze, opiates, perhaps stimulants.  But for something like
psychedelics, pleasure isn't really the point.  The point is a novel
sensory/learning experience that specifically has long-term positive
effects.  While the trip could be confusing or difficult, the aftereffects
are the real meat.  In that sense they are almost opposite to alcohol.

I think it is a TRAVESTY that intelligent people have been scared away from
psychedelics.  You guys being so against them is insane to me.  Taking a
psychedelic is like visiting the most unbelievable museum, using your brain
in ways you did not think possible.  They are some of the most
learning-oriented experiences I have ever had.  They do not remind me of
drugs like alcohol or opiates or speed.  They remind me of museums, school,
symphonies, great works of art and literature.  That is the category they
belong in.  That you seem to categorize them along something like alcohol
is, to me, merely a testament to the absolute degree of success of the
brainwashing campaigns by our government to convince people (including
smart people) that psychedelics are bad drugs that have bad effects.
Really, they are tools that can bring out power and intelligence you never
knew you had.  There's a reason so many successful humans (including
scientists, btw) have used psychedelics.  Crick himself was on LSD when he
was able to visualize the double-helix structure when mulling Franklin's
x-ray crystallography images.  That expansive, lateral, visual,
multi-thread thinking enabled by psychedelics led to the discovery of the
structure of DNA itself.

@Spike:

Don't know why you keep talking about addiction.  Psychedelics are not
addictive.  Those hobos are not LSD junkies.

"Will, I am pretty sure Sagan wasn’t stoned when he made that video.": How
do you know?  He was open about his experiences with LSD and marijuana and
they produce exactly the type of thinking in the video.  While I imagine he
wasn't on drugs while recording it, his thoughts within were almost
certainly influenced by the aforementioned drugs.  You can't bake an apple
pie without first creating the universe.  And you can't get Carl Sagan
without marijuana and LSD.

"I have fun in this head without chemicals": except coffee I guess?  You've
said a few things here extolling the cognitive benefits of coffee.  Why is
it any different?  I do a lot less psychedelics than my mother drinks
coffee (few times a year vs. multiple cups a day); I would say the bang for
my buck is far greater with the psychedelics, and if my mom doesn't have
coffee for a single day she gets pissed off, headaches, etc.  I haven't
tripped in months and the only aftereffects are positive ones.  Not sure
why the addictive drug that people must use every day or suffer cognitive
and physical side effects is somehow seen as morally superior to the
non-addictive drug that I can use once in my entire life and reap the
positive benefits forever.

On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 12:47 PM Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 28, 2022 at 6:06 AM MB via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Back in the 60s when I was in school there were plenty of kids trying out
>> various things.  It was so bad to watch that even as a rather thoughtless
>> 20-something I decided that I did *not* want to go there, to be trying
>> whatever it was they were taking.  My college experience led me to become
>> the designated driver,  as the other guys scared me stiff.
>>
>> Alcohol was tricky enough, thanks very much.  At present I know people of
>> retirement age trying to wean themselves from that - and having terrible
>> trouble.  So glad I made the choices I did.
>>
>> If I missed something wonderful, at least I didn't fall into that pit.
>>
>
> Same, if more recent.  I know that it can be pleasurable in the moment.
> It's what comes after that moment that's the problem.  Mere pleasure can be
> had in far less self-destructive ways.
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