[ExI] bitcoin again

Fri Nov 25 23:47:36 UTC 2022

Spike,
There is a ton of evidence that the US threatens crypto as an asset not
necessarily money but definitely valuable assets.
You cannot pay taxes in crypto but you are charged taxes for gains obtained
by trading crypto. So the judge in your example would be wrong in
dismissing the case because crypto is not money. It is property, so if one
steals property one commits a crime with criminal and civil consequences.
There is ample precedence for this.

IRS Notice 2014-21 guides individuals and businesses on the tax treatment
of transactions using convertible virtual currencies. For federal tax
purposes, virtual currency is treated as property. General tax principles
applicable to property transactions apply to transactions using virtual
currency.

Also the Federal government by virtue of investigation and indictments
declared illicit acquisitions from others THEFT so implicitly admitting
crypto is valuable.

Here one of the latest examples:

https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/07/feds-seize-3point36-billion-in-bitcoin-the-second-largest-recovery-so-far.html

James Zhong of Gainesville, Georgia, pleaded guilty to wire fraud in the
theft of about $3.36 billion in bitcoin stolen from the illegal Silk Road
marketplace, which the FBI shut down in 2013.

So the lawyers in the case you created should not mention BTC as a money
but as property that can be stolen and therefore accusing Bankman to be a
thief.

Giovanni

On Fri, Nov 25, 2022 at 7:13 AM spike jones via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> Do pardon my naïve queries and thanks to all who have the patience to
> educate a well-meaning geezer.
>
>
>
> I was with my college buddies yesterday for our annual festival of
> gratitude for… well pretty much everything that has happened to us.  We
> have been a very fortunate generation.
>
>
>
> The subject of FTX came up.  I am no hipster on that subject but I have
> friends who are (you) and they don’t.  They are all geezers too.  So we
> shared our misconceptions, and I came up with a new one, of which perhaps
> some young hipster among us can disabuse me.
>
>
>
> I offered a thought experiment where one imagines itself as a federal
> judge with a courtroom full of angry defrauded investors in FTX.  Its Honor
> is about the age I am now.  Its Honor listens to the plaintiffs talk about
> how they gave their money to this Bankman Fried who then stole their
> money.
>
>
>
> Its Honor asks the obvious: SBF stole your money?
>
>
>
> Plaintiffs: he stole our deposits, which weren’t actually in the form of
> cash fiat money.
>
>
>
> It: You deposited gold coins or physical assets?
>
>
>
> They:  Well no, not exactly, but an equivalent.
>
>
>
> It: Do explain yourselves please.
>
>
>
> They: we bought the BitCoin from him with fiat money, he gave us the
> cryptokeys to the digital currency we bought.  That part was fair game.
> Then we deposited the BitCoin with him.  He told us he is not a banker,
> disregard his name, he is a digital currency exchange.  He buys and sells
> digital currency, changes one to another only.  It is an digital currency
> exchange.  Bankman doesn’t operate a bank, man.
>
>
>
> It: Ah, so he didn’t actually steal your fiat currency.  He stole your
> BitCoins?
>
>
>
> They: he went off and invested it in risky stuff, some safe bets such as
> American retail politicians, but that BitCoin is gone now.
>
>
>
> It:  I see.  So… this Bankman Fried stole your…em… numbers?
>
>
>
> They:  Our BitCoins, ja.
>
>
>
> It:  So… he stole intellectual property, so you should taking this up with
> the copyright office?
>
>
>
> They:  Your Honor, he stole our MONEY!
>
>
>
> It:  So… you claim that your numbers are… money?
>
>
>
> They:  Ja.
>
>
>
> It: Can you buy groceries or pay or taxes with this digital money?
>
>
>
> They:  Now one must exchange it for fiat money first.
>
>
>
> It:  So this case is about prosecuting this sleazy wretched swindler for
> stealing these numbers you say are money?
>
>
>
> They:  Ja.
>
>
>
> It:  BANG {slams big wooden hammer on desk {why are they still doing
> that?}}  Out of my courtroom, all of yas.
>
>
>
> Based on that thought experiment, I made a prediction for my geezer
> friends: Bankman Fried will not go to prison.  No reasonable prosecutor
> will take this case (because she was probably on SBF’s payroll.)  He
> invested in all the right retail politicians, they will say something
> analogous to our federal judge in the thought experiment above.
>
>
>
> My geezer friends then pointed out that Bankman Fried did not pay taxes on
> his… numbers.  I immediately responded: I retract and reverse previous
> prediction.  They will roast his ass bigtime.
>
>
>
> spike
> _______________________________________________
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> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
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>
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