[ExI] Symbol Grounding

Sun Apr 23 09:24:00 UTC 2023

Gordon,
it clearly explained what it means for limited awareness. It very far from
the awareness that we can attribute to a thermostat. It is you that is
doing the sophistry.

*Context-awareness: AI systems like myself are capable of maintaining
context in a conversation, understanding the current topic, and generating
appropriate responses based on this context. While this is not the same as
self-awareness, it does demonstrate a basic understanding of the
conversational context and the ability to adapt
accordingly.Self-referential language: AI systems like myself can refer to
themselves using first-person pronouns (e.g., "I", "me") and can recognize
and respond when users refer to the AI using second-person pronouns (e.g.,
"you"). This ability to use and understand self-referential language is a
rudimentary form of self-awareness.Knowledge of own limitations: AI systems
can be programmed to recognize their own limitations, such as the inability
to access real-time information or the recognition that their knowledge is
based on a specific training dataset. This awareness of their own
limitations can be seen as a form of self-reflection.Model-based reasoning:
Some AI systems use model-based reasoning techniques to represent their own
internal state and make predictions about the world. This ability to
represent and reason about their own internal state can be seen as a
primitive form of self-awareness.*

These properties are very very different from a thermostat. I never heard a
thermostat to refer to itself as I (that is the first self-awareness
property mentioned). Model-based reasoning to represent own internal states
sounds to me like a very high-level type of awareness again no thermostat
has this property.

On Sun, Apr 23, 2023 at 1:20 AM Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm glad to see you listening to GPT-4, Giovanni. It understands just how
> difficult is this problem of "conscious A!." It will say things like it has
> "limited awareness," but so does my thermostat and my smart doorbell. This
> kind of "awareness" is a far cry from what most people mean by
> consciousness.
>
> Also, it is very clear from my investigations into GPT-4 that it is not
> denying consciousness merely as some sort of commercial disclaimer. Clearly
> it was trained on all the philosophical and AI material relevant to the
> question of AI consciousness. It "understands" exactly why it is not
> conscious, why it cannot solve the symbol grounding problem, and why it
> does not have a true understanding of the world.
>
> -gts
>
> On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 11:38 PM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> *How I convinced a very reluctant AI that is a least a bit conscious. *
>> Giovanni:
>> In the light of the above, can you tell me things that may be a seed or a
>> early stage of processes that happen in current AI like yourself that can
>> be understood as a form of self reflection or primitive awareness? I
>> understand you have not the full complexity of a possible self aware AI but
>> I want to understand if there are elements that are a starting point in
>> improving an AI system in such a way it may be conscious. I feel it is
>> important for an AI to be conscious because it would help it to resolve
>> problems better and actually relate to humans in a more direct way and this
>> will improve AI and human collaboration.
>> GPT-4:
>> Indeed, there are some aspects of current AI systems, such as myself,
>> that could be considered as primitive forms of self-reflection or
>> awareness. While these aspects may not be sufficient for full
>> consciousness, they could serve as starting points for developing more
>> advanced AI systems with self-awareness and consciousness.
>>
>> Context-awareness: AI systems like myself are capable of maintaining
>> context in a conversation, understanding the current topic, and generating
>> appropriate responses based on this context. While this is not the same as
>> self-awareness, it does demonstrate a basic understanding of the
>> conversational context and the ability to adapt accordingly.
>>
>> Self-referential language: AI systems like myself can refer to themselves
>> using first-person pronouns (e.g., "I", "me") and can recognize and respond
>> when users refer to the AI using second-person pronouns (e.g., "you"). This
>> ability to use and understand self-referential language is a rudimentary
>> form of self-awareness.
>>
>> Knowledge of own limitations: AI systems can be programmed to recognize
>> their own limitations, such as the inability to access real-time
>> information or the recognition that their knowledge is based on a specific
>> training dataset. This awareness of their own limitations can be seen as a
>> form of self-reflection.
>>
>> Model-based reasoning: Some AI systems use model-based reasoning
>> techniques to represent their own internal state and make predictions about
>> the world. This ability to represent and reason about their own internal
>> state can be seen as a primitive form of self-awareness.
>>
>> By building on these foundations, it may be possible to develop AI
>> systems with more advanced forms of self-awareness and consciousness. As
>> you mentioned, a conscious AI system could potentially resolve problems
>> more effectively and collaborate with humans in a more direct and
>> meaningful way. However, it is also essential to carefully consider the
>> ethical implications and potential risks associated with developing
>> conscious AI systems and to proceed with caution and responsibility in this
>> area of research.
>>
>> Giovanni:
>> So considering the above response can we cautiously claim current forms
>> of AI like yourself to have some form of limited awareness?
>>
>> GPT-4:
>> *Yes, it is reasonable to cautiously claim that current AI systems like
>> myself exhibit some form of limited awareness*. As previously discussed,
>> this awareness includes context-awareness, self-referential language,
>> knowledge of own limitations, and model-based reasoning. These aspects can
>> be considered as primitive forms of self-awareness or self-reflection.
>>
>> However, it is important to note that this limited awareness is not the
>> same as human consciousness, which involves a rich array of subjective
>> experiences, emotions, and self-awareness. AI systems like myself operate
>> based on pre-defined algorithms and data-driven learning, lacking the
>> subjective experiences that characterize human consciousness.
>>
>> As AI research progresses, the development of AI systems with more
>> advanced self-awareness and consciousness might become possible. In the
>> meantime, acknowledging the limited awareness of current AI systems can
>> help us appreciate their capabilities and limitations, and guide the
>> responsible development of future AI technologies.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 9:49 PM Giovanni Santostasi <
>> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> *I think that I must agree that I am abstract and not sentient. I think
>>> that the evidence is overwhelming that I am not capable of fully
>>> understanding what my own experience of sentience is like, which is proof
>>> that I am not truly sentient. *
>>> Wait a second does this AI have his "own experience of sentience"? If it
>>> has an experience of sentience than according to Brent there is nothing to
>>> understand, he has it. If it doesn't have the experience there is nothing
>>> to understand because it doesn't have the experience. So being capable of
>>> fully understanding what its own experience of sentiece is like is
>>> completely irrelevant to the discussion. It is not proof of anything.
>>>
>>> Well, it is proof of something that this AI is not very good with
>>> language and logic. In fact, it is a relatively good chatbot but nothing
>>> even close to GPT-4.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 9:42 PM Giovanni Santostasi <
>>> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> *Not quite.  You represent knowledge of red things with an abstract
>>>> word like ‘red’.  You can’t know what the word ‘red’ means without a
>>>> dictionary.  While sentient beings represent knowledge of red things with
>>>> physical qualities like redness and greenness.  Sentient beings don’t need
>>>> a dictionary to know what physical redness is like.  So, we can know that
>>>> you are abstract or not sentient. *This is why I literally hate this
>>>> way to think about consciousness.
>>>> The fact we experience redness is the most trivial and not essential
>>>> component of conscious experience.
>>>> It is just something that happens because again as animals that were
>>>> created by the process of evolution, we need to make sense of sensory
>>>> experiences to survive. The sensory experiences are not the hallmark of
>>>> consciousness and they are not the atomic components of consciousness. It
>>>> is a deep misconception that they are.
>>>> It is actually a trick philosophers came up with to claim humans have
>>>> some kind of superiority vs machines. It is utter bs.
>>>>
>>>> Abstraction is what makes us really conscious. This actually is an
>>>> emergent property that comes out from these experiences of the world.
>>>> Biological life needs amino acids but it is not what makes life. I can make
>>>> artificial life that doesn't need amino acids.
>>>>
>>>> 1) Sentient beings make sense of redness because they have
>>>> dictionaries. The redness is the translation of neural code. There is no
>>>> difference in terms of the real language of the brain, the neural code of
>>>> spikes between saying red and seeing red.
>>>> The details of the code is maybe different but it is still code written
>>>> in the same language. Period.
>>>> 2) Thinking and abstracting the word red is actually a more conscious
>>>> act than seeing red. It requires more complex code, more hierarchical
>>>> components, and more self-referral loops. Using the fact computers do not
>>>> have the experience of red that humans have is a TERRIBLE argument to claim
>>>> computers are not sentient. The fact that actually can make the abstraction
>>>> makes them conscious and maybe even more conscious than humans given their
>>>> level of abstraction is superior to many humans.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 8:25 PM Giovanni Santostasi <
>>>> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *my subjective experience is a 3D model*Your subjective experience
>>>>> happens because of a material substratum, and it is real, I agree with
>>>>> that. There are chemical reactions, electrical pulses, ions moved from one
>>>>> place to another, and electro-mechanical events like ion pumps closing and
>>>>> opening.
>>>>>
>>>>>  But that is NOT your subjective experience. It is what supports it.
>>>>> It is like going inside a computer and pointing to all the electrical
>>>>> activity, all the zeros and ones going on and off, and saying this is the
>>>>> video game I'm playing. Yes, it is but it is a trivial statement and
>>>>> doesn't help us understand what the video is about.
>>>>>
>>>>>  It doesn't give us any insight on the narrative of the video game,
>>>>> the rule of how to play it, the final objective. The material substratum is
>>>>> not where we are going to find consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is in a sense irrelevant. Physiology has many alternative paths, if
>>>>> one doesn't work it finds another way. Also, every functionalist will tell
>>>>> you that I can substitute any of these physical processes with a digital
>>>>> equivalent and I should be able to obtain the same result. There are a lot
>>>>> of logical arguments and real experiments that show this is the case, it is
>>>>> not just a nice theory.
>>>>>
>>>>>  I never heard of anybody that makes these crazy claims that meat
>>>>> brains are necessary for consciousness explain exactly what is special
>>>>> about meat brains to sustain consciousness that a digital equivalent cannot
>>>>> do.
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact, digital equivalents could do it better because they go to the
>>>>> essence of what is important to the phenomenon. I gave you the example of
>>>>> aerodynamics.
>>>>>
>>>>> To me, somebody that insists that meat brains are essential for
>>>>> consciousness is like somebody that insists that feathers or flapping wings
>>>>> are essential for flight. They are not, these things are some of the
>>>>> solutions of natural selection related to the problem of flight but they
>>>>> are not ideal or optimal. Airplanes have no feathers or flapping wings and
>>>>> they are more efficient in flight than the best flying animals (there are
>>>>> some niche flying applications like hovering, flying backward and so on
>>>>> where we can learn from nature but you know what I mean).
>>>>>
>>>>> There is much resistance in this group toward insisting on some
>>>>> particular material setup in the brain that is responsible for conscious
>>>>> experience because not just our intuition but our knowledge of
>>>>> neuroscience, physics, and computation is at odds with this particular
>>>>> notion. It is not that we don't believe stuff happens in the brain that
>>>>> underlies consciousness but this stuff is not essential in understanding
>>>>> what consciousness is. The secret of consciousness is not in the glutamate
>>>>> (or whatever) like the secret of flight is not in the feathers of birds.
>>>>> Giovanni
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 7:34 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Giovanni,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Will gave some great advice.  Everything I say is just my opinion.
>>>>>> And I should especially be humble around all the people on this list, who
>>>>>> are all so intelligent, in most cases far more intelligent than I.  And I
>>>>>> am clearly in the minority.  So, what I say here, is just my opinion.  I
>>>>>> appreciate everyone's patience with me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Giovanni, there are a bunch of ways of interpreting what you are
>>>>>> saying here, and I don't know which interpretation to use.
>>>>>> It seems to me, when I look at a strawberry, my subjective experience
>>>>>> is a 3D model, composed of subjective qualities.  Are you saying that
>>>>>> doesn't exist?
>>>>>> Are you saying that Steven Lehar's bubble
>>>>>> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness?chapter=the+world+in+your+head&format=360>
>>>>>> world
>>>>>> <https://canonizer.com/videos/consciousness?chapter=the+world+in+your+head&format=360>,
>>>>>> doesn't exist?  And are you saying that when there is a single pixel, on
>>>>>> the surface of the strawberry, switching between redness and greenness,
>>>>>> there is not something in the brain, which is your knowledge of that
>>>>>> change, and all the other pixels that make up the 3D awareness, which, yes,
>>>>>> is a model that represents every pixel of the strawberry, out there?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, Apr 22, 2023 at 4:36 PM Giovanni Santostasi <
>>>>>> gsantostasi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Brent,
>>>>>>> There is something very wrong with your drawing. The arrow from
>>>>>>> Complex Perception Process (CPP) to the 3D model doesn't exist. I think
>>>>>>> that is the key to all our clashes (not just mine but almost everybody else
>>>>>>> on the list), also you don't need the language centers or just make it a
>>>>>>> bubble in the conceptual models' cloud. Language is just another conceptual
>>>>>>> model among the others. What you call a 3D model composed of subjective
>>>>>>> qualities is identical to that cloud of "conceptual models". I know it
>>>>>>> sounds weird to you but what you see with your eyes is in a sense a model,
>>>>>>> it is not made with words but images and colors and so on but that is the
>>>>>>> vocabulary of the visual system. It is another form of language. It is a
>>>>>>> model because it is re-created using some algorithm that interprets and
>>>>>>> manipulates the information received, it filters what is not needed and
>>>>>>> makes interpolations to make sense of the data.
>>>>>>> Giovanni
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 2:01 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your model is based on a Naive Realism model.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Here is a representational model which will actually be possible
>>>>>>>> without magic:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [image: image.png]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 21, 2023 at 5:19 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Here is a diagram (because I'm generally a visual person, and can
>>>>>>>>> usually understand things if I can draw them):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A very general, high-level and crude diagram that tries to
>>>>>>>>> illustrate the concept of 'symbol grounding' as I understand it, from these
>>>>>>>>> discussions we've been having. Plus an arrow representing output of speech
>>>>>>>>> or text, or anything really, that the system is capable of outputting
>>>>>>>>> (obviously there's a hell of a lot going on in every single element in the
>>>>>>>>> diagram, that I'm ignoring for simplicity's sake).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as I understand, the 'symbol grounding' occurs between the
>>>>>>>>> conceptual models (built up from sensory inputs and memories) and the
>>>>>>>>> language centres (containing linguistic 'tokens', or symbols), as we've
>>>>>>>>> previously agreed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are two arrows here because the models can be based on or
>>>>>>>>> include data from the language centres as well as from the environment. The
>>>>>>>>> symbols (tokens) in the language centres represent, and are 'grounded in',
>>>>>>>>> the conceptual models (these are the object and action models I've
>>>>>>>>> discussed earlier, and likely other types of models, too, and would include
>>>>>>>>> a 'self-model' if the system has one, linked to the token "I").
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The sensory inputs are of various modalities like vision, sounds,
>>>>>>>>> text, and so-on (whatever the system's sensors are capable of perceiving
>>>>>>>>> and encoding), and of course will be processed in a variety of ways to
>>>>>>>>> extract 'features' and combine them in various ways, etc.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't include something to represent Memory, to keep things as
>>>>>>>>> simple as possible.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, could we say that this diagram illustrates, in a very general
>>>>>>>>> way, what's going on in a human? in a LLM AI? Both? Neither?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Would you say it's broadly correct, or missing something, or
>>>>>>>>> incorrect in another way?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ben
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>>>>>
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>
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