[ExI] Ben Goertzel on Large Language Models

Jason Resch jasonresch at gmail.com
Fri Apr 28 23:44:42 UTC 2023


On Fri, Apr 28, 2023, 7:32 PM Giovanni Santostasi <gsantostasi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Jason,
> Did you see some of the latest Wolfram videos on physics emerging from his
> graph models? He has a very interesting idea on how consciousness and
> individuation gives rise to the dynamics of the laws of physics from the
> set of all possibilities.
> I think he is into something here.
> Giovanni
>

I have. I think his article on the Ruliad is on the right path. It is
converging to ideas of Bruno Marchal, Russell Standish, and Markus Muller,
whose ideas show we can recover much of physical law from first principles
regarding observation, but I don't think Wolfram is aware of this work. I
sent him an email last year but haven't yet received a reply. Below is what
I wrote to him:

________________________________

Dear Stephen Wolfram,

I recently came across your article "Why Does the Universe Exist? Some
Perspectives from Our Physics Project" and found it to be both fascinating
and expertly explained.

I had written an article that reached nearly identical conclusions ("Why
does anything exist?").

The reason I am writing to you, and the reason I share my article with you
is because I think you might be quite interested in the citations and
references it contains to other research and researchers who have been
operating along these same lines of reasoning. Among them are:

Bruno Marchal in “The computationalist reformulation of the mind-body
problem” (2013)
This, along with his 1989 PhD thesis showed how if all computations exist,
we must derive the laws of physics from the structure of all computations,
and showed how a quantum logic emerges from such a structure.
Markus Müller in “Law without law: from observer states to physics via
algorithmic information theory” (2020)
Derives many properties of physics, such as time, a big bang, simple
computable probabilistic laws, from algorithmic information theory applied
to all computations.
Russell Standish in “Theory of Nothing” (2006)
Derives aspects of quantum mechanics, including the Shrodinger equation,
from very simple assumptions concerning observation within an infinite
ensemble

I hope that these references may be of use to you and to your Physics
Project.


Sincerely,

Jason Resch

________________________________

I completed my article about a month before Wolfram's article came out,
otherwise I would have cited his work extensively.

Jason



> On Fri, Apr 28, 2023 at 3:22 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 28, 2023, 12:46 AM Giovanni Santostasi via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I used to believe that consciousness is fundamental because of my
>>> interest in Eastern philosophy. But it is a lie.
>>>
>>
>> I would say that consciousness is not the most fundamental aspect of
>> reality (I would put Truth in that category, and from truth, next we get
>> numbers and their mathematical relations). From mathematical relations we
>> get computations, and from computations, consciousness.
>>
>> So then there is a real sense in which consciousness is more fundamental
>> than physics. Apparent physical universes, and their laws and properties
>> emerge from the psychology of Turing machines. Or put another way: physical
>> reality is what platonic conscious computations dream.
>>
>> This is a form of idealism, but one structured by mathematical laws and
>> the probability distribution as defined by algorithmic information theory,
>> and an idealism that defines the relation between the three modes of
>> existence: the mathematical, material, and mental realities.
>>
>> Jason
>>
>>
>>
>>> Giovanni
>>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 9:34 PM Gordon Swobe via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Quite by accident, I happened upon this quote of Erwin Schrodinger this
>>>> evening.
>>>>
>>>> "Consciousness cannot be explained in physical terms. Because
>>>> consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be explained in any
>>>> other terms."
>>>>
>>>> That is actually what I also hold to be true about consciousness,
>>>> though not necessarily for reasons related to quantum mechanics or eastern
>>>> philosophy. (Schrodinger is said to have been influenced by
>>>> eastern philosophy).
>>>>
>>>> -gts
>>>>
>>>> -gts
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 8:43 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *From:* Gordon Swobe <gordon.swobe at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Ben Goertzel on Large Language Models
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Apr 27, 2023 at 6:51 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It looks to me like GPT has intelligence without consciousness.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> >…That is how it looks to me also, and to GPT-4. When asked if
>>>>> consciousness and intelligence are separable, it replied that the question
>>>>> is difficult to answer with biological systems, but...
>>>>>
>>>>> >…"From the perspective of artificial intelligence, it is possible to
>>>>> create systems with high levels of intelligence that lack consciousness. AI
>>>>> models like mine can learn from vast amounts of data and perform complex
>>>>> tasks, but we do not have subjective experiences or self-awareness." - GPT4
>>>>>
>>>>> -gts
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This leads to a disturbing thought: intelligence without consciousness
>>>>> becomes Eliezer’s unfriendly AI.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Since I am on the topic of disturbing thoughts, I had an idea today as
>>>>> I was in Costco going past the item shown below.  Compare now to fifty
>>>>> years ago.  Some of us here may remember spring of 1973.  I do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Imagine it is 1973 and suddenly all networked computers stopped
>>>>> working or began working incorrectly, such as being completely choked with
>>>>> spam.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of the things we had in 1973 would still work, as we were not
>>>>> heavily dependent on the internet then.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Now imagine that happening today all networked computers quit or are
>>>>> overwhelmed so they don’t work right.  It really isn’t as simple as
>>>>> returning to 1973-level technology.  We cannot do that, for we have long
>>>>> since abandoned the necessary skillsets and infrastructure needed to
>>>>> sustain society at that tech level.  If you think about the most immediate
>>>>> consequences, they are horrifying.  It wouldn’t take long for all the food
>>>>> to be gone and no more would be coming in, for the networks needed for
>>>>> transportation infrastructure would all be down.  Most of the population in
>>>>> the tech advanced civilizations would perish from starvation or violence in
>>>>> the resulting panicked chaos.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are those who would see the destruction of a large fraction of
>>>>> humanity as a good thing: radical greens for instance.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is what caused me to comment that humans using AI for bad ends is
>>>>> a more immediate existential risk than is unfriendly AI.  This unfriendly
>>>>> AI would not necessarily wish to destroy humanity, but an unfriendly BI
>>>>> will use AI, which would remorselessly participate in any nefarious plot it
>>>>> was asked to do.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> spike
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> extropy-chat mailing list
>>>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>>>>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>>>>
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