[ExI] Culture war and universal values in the age of spiritual machines
efc at swisscows.email
efc at swisscows.email
Mon Nov 27 15:23:46 UTC 2023
Interesting. It feels on the one hand, (to me) like truisms, and on the
other as an impossible ideal. I am reminded of the infighting of the
effective altruism movement and could easily imagine that something like
this could be weaponized there.
I could also see this in a daoist perspective, where stones and animals
already are manifesting the right morality, since they are not rational
beings in the ways humans are.
So when having such abstract theories, I feel they can be bent and twisted
to mean any nr of things and they lose a lot of their power.
Another view... moral behaviour is just a side effect of a well developed
character. Therefore, no moral theory is needed, just a way to develop
people. Morality will follow.
Best regards,
Daniel
On Mon, 27 Nov 2023, Jason Resch wrote:
> Here is an except from his paper, read by Zuboff. It is interesting that he titles this as applicable to the question of whether AI
> will be moral:
> https://youtu.be/Yy3SKed25eM
>
> Jason
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 5:48 AM Jason Resch <jasonresch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2023, 5:11 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> Hello Jason,
>
> That sounds like a tough moral to live up to. What does he say about the
> fact that we by design never will have that information?
>
>
> He acknowledges that it is impossible to live up to or achieve, but lays out the argument showing that this is what morality
> concerns, and acknowledging this provides both a justification for why we should all try to act morally in the first place (why
> we should try to be good), as well as a foundation for agreement on what should be the most moral action (what is the most
> good), even if that's not knowable, we would at least all agree if we had perfect knowledge of the situation. So we can build
> and justify heuristics on this common foundation, now that we have one.
>
>
>
>
> Does he advocate for best effort? If so, it seems like the power of the
> principle to guide people is not the strongest.
>
>
>
> He saw all previous attempts at justifying morality (answering: for what reason ought we be good) as wanting. The goal of this
> paper is to answer the question of why (rather than the how).
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023, Jason Resch wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 26, 2023, 3:42 PM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> > I think that thought has occupied quite a few philosopher. I think the
> > fashionable thing in philosophy is the "platinum rule". But I could be
> > wrong.
> >
> >
> > I think this is an inter and novel take:
> >
> > https://philarchive.org/rec/ARNMAW
> >
> > Zuboff argues that the most correct action is what one would do if one has perfect and complete knowledge, and
> this knowledge would
> > contain the knowledge of what it's like to be all the affected individual beings points of view, hence morality
> would then be
> > conceived as a reconciliation of all desires of all conscious beings.
> >
> > Jason
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Daniel
> >
> >
> > On Sun, 26 Nov 2023, William Flynn Wallace wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I'm not a fan of the concept "justice" without the machinery underneath
> > > defined. Otherwise it is just an empty term. So that's why I'm wondering
> > > about collapsing some of them into the others. daniel
> > > This sounds like a multiple regression type problem. Why not let some AI parse this one? Maybe
> everything on the list
> > will collapse
> > > into the Golden Rule. bill w
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2023 at 12:53 PM <efc at swisscows.email> wrote:
> > > Another interesting question is if some of those values can be collapsed
> > > into others.
> > >
> > > I'm not a fan of the concept "justice" without the machinery underneath
> > > defined. Otherwise it is just an empty term. So that's why I'm wondering
> > > about collapsing some of them into the others.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, 26 Nov 2023, William Flynn Wallace via extropy-chat wrote:
> > >
> > > > Saving this! THis is great - thanks Stuart.
> > > >
> > > > Commentary by S. Freud:
> > > >
> > > > The law to love your enemies is the most impossible thing to follow in any religion.
> > > >
> > > > bill w
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2023 at 12:13 PM Jason Resch via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> wrote:
> > > > This is wonderful. Thank you for sharing it.
> > > > Jason
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2023 at 12:41 PM Stuart LaForge via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> wrote:
> > > > I asked ChatGPT what set of moral values lay at the intersection of the
> > > > sets of all values espoused by the major religions of the world with
> > > > explicit references to their sacred texts. This was its answer and its
> > > > answer gave me hope that AI can help end the culture wars. So here are
> > > > the Five Moral Imperatives shared by the world's major religions:
> > > >
> > > > The Golden Rule and Reciprocity:
> > > >
> > > > Christianity: "So in everything, do to others what you would have them
> > > > do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets." (Matthew 7:12,
> > > > New Testament)
> > > > Judaism: "What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow man. This is
> > > > the law: all the rest is commentary." (Talmud, Shabbat 31a)
> > > > Islam: "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother
> > > > what he wishes for himself." (Hadith of Prophet Muhammad, Bukhari and
> > > > Muslim)
> > > > Hinduism: "This is the sum of duty: do not do to others what would cause
> > > > pain if done to you." (Mahabharata 5:1517)
> > > > Buddhism: "Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find
> > > > hurtful." (Udana-Varga 5.18)
> > > > Sikhism: "As you deem yourself, deem others as well; only then you shall
> > > > become a partner in heaven." (Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 1299)
> > > >
> > > > Compassion and Love:
> > > >
> > > > Christianity: "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have
> > > > loved you, so you must love one another." (John 13:34, New Testament)
> > > > Judaism: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Leviticus 19:18, Torah)
> > > > Islam: "And lower to them the wing of humility out of mercy and say, 'My
> > > > Lord, have mercy upon them as they brought me up [when I was] small.'"
> > > > (Quran 17:24)
> > > > Hinduism: "The whole world is full of God's glory; serve all beings as
> > > > God." (Ramayana, Yuddha Kanda 115.33)
> > > > Buddhism: "Radiate boundless love towards the entire world." (Buddha,
> > > > Sutta Nipata 149-150)
> > > > Sikhism: "One who recognizes the One Lord among all beings does not talk
> > > > of ego." (Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 99)
> > > >
> > > > Justice and Fairness:
> > > >
> > > > Christianity: "Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the
> > > > poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly."
> > > > (Leviticus 19:15, Torah)
> > > > Judaism: "Justice, justice shall you pursue." (Deuteronomy 16:20, Torah)
> > > > Islam: "O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in
> > > > justice, witnesses for Allah, even if it be against yourselves or
> > > > parents and relatives." (Quran 4:135)
> > > > Hinduism: "Justice, when it is corrupted, destroys; but when it is
> > > > upheld, it upholds the world." (Mahabharata 12.131.6)
> > > > Buddhism: "Conquer the angry man by love; conquer the ill-natured man by
> > > > goodness; conquer the miser with generosity; conquer the liar with
> > > > truth." (Dhammapada 223)
> > > > Sikhism: "Justice is the mint, courage the brave coin. When the coin of
> > > > justice is made, it is tested by courage." (Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 1088)
> > > >
> > > > Charity and Generosity:
> > > >
> > > > Christianity: "Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide
> > > > purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that
> > > > will never fail." (Luke 12:33, New Testament)
> > > > Judaism: "Do not be hard-hearted or tight-fisted toward your poor
> > > > brother." (Deuteronomy 15:7, Torah)
> > > > Islam: "The example of those who spend their wealth in the Way of Allah
> > > > is like that of a grain that sprouts seven ears, and in every ear there
> > > > are a hundred grains." (Quran 2:261)
> > > > Hinduism: "The hands that help are holier than the lips that pray."
> > > > (Yajur Veda)
> > > > Buddhism: "If beings knew, as I know, the result of giving and sharing,
> > > > they would not eat without having given." (Itivuttaka 26)
> > > > Sikhism: "Serve the True Guru, and you shall obtain the fruits of your
> > > > heart's desires." (Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 1299)
> > > >
> > > > Truth and Honesty:
> > > >
> > > > Christianity: "Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak
> > > > truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body."
> > > > (Ephesians 4:25, New Testament)
> > > > Judaism: "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."
> > > > (Exodus 20:16, Torah)
> > > > Islam: "O you who have believed, fear Allah and be with those who are
> > > > true." (Quran 9:119)
> > > > Hinduism: "The truth which satisfies the heart is true." (Mahabharata
> > > > 5:124.9)
> > > > Buddhism: "In speech that is gentle, truthful, and beneficial, one
> > > > should address others." (Anguttara Nikaya 10.176)
> > > > Sikhism: "Truth is the trade of the Guru's children; practice truth in
> > > > your mind." (Guru Granth Sahib, Ang 471)
> > > >
> > > > As a human being, I am deeply moved by this and hopeful for a bright
> > > > future where men and machines explore the galaxy together.
> > > >
> > > > Stuart LaForge
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