[ExI] [Extropolis] Religion

Keith Henson hkeithhenson at gmail.com
Thu Aug 8 14:54:50 UTC 2024 

The last couple of posts have invoked mysticism.  OK, how did this
human trait evolve?  You have only direct selection of the trait or as
a side effect of something else that was selected.

Keith

On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:54 AM efc--- via extropy-chat
<extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:33 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
> > <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> Mysticism is the basis of religion.  All religion starts with a ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society.
> >
> > Two recent US religions originated from women who had temporal lobe
> > brain damage.
>
> Which ones? Would be an interesting read.
>
> >> This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word.
> >
> > As you well know, it is usually nonsense, not truth.  So why are human
> > minds susceptible to this class of memes?
>
> That's why I think about religion as a mystic or transcendent "core"
> that only applies to a small "elite" and a broader control system. It
> could be that the ball is set in motion by the core, but this is then
> captured by more "worldly" people who see it as an excellent way for
> control.
>
> > Truth does not seem to be much involved.  Consider how many people
>
> I think that perhaps we can learn something from the deep, meaningful
> experiences that some people have through religion, and maybe extract,
> and apply it in a non-religious way to other people to enrich and deepen
> the meaning of their lives.
>
>
> > were deeply affected by the QAnon bs.  One of them was so affected
> > that he went there armed and insisted on being let into the (non
> > existent) basement.  I think he got 5 years in jail.  It was an
> > amazing story.
> >
> > Keith
> >
> > PS  I once spent considerable time on a picket talking to a
> > scientologist.  He noted that the members of this cult were subject to
> > scam after scam, particularly MLM scams.  I suspect this is due to a
> > genetic trait for gullibility, i.e., you are born with it, though I
> > have speculated that people could be trained to be resistant to cults
> > and other scams.  I would like to see someone investigate the genetic
> > backgrounds of cult members.  It seems to me that people with Mormon
> > family backgrounds are over represented in scientology, but I don't
> > have numbers.  (Mormons definitely sorted out the gullible.)
> >
> >
> >>  I can’t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement—maybe a small cult of idiots.  But powerful religions are based on powerful truths.  As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth “everything looks different but it’s actually all one thing”.  Animism before that was based on the simple truth “different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior”.
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and
> >>> > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above.
> >>>
> >>> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and
> >>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism
> >>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
> >>>
> >>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
> >>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
> >>>
> >>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which
> >>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly
> >>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety
> >>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so
> >>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
> >>>
> >>> > Memento mori.
> >>> >
> >>> > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> >       The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I
> >>> >       make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war.
> >>> >
> >>> >       Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom
> >>> >       that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect
> >>> >       someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This
> >>> >       brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion
> >>> >       since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious
> >>> >       memes.
> >>> >
> >>> >       This classification does not help with the question of why humans have
> >>> >       (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious
> >>> >       memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in
> >>> >       the Stone Age.
> >>> >
> >>> >       Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes.
> >>> >
> >>> >       Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think
> >>> >       genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious
> >>> >       memes.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >       Keith
> >>> >
> >>> >       --
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> >>> >
> >>> >
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