[ExI] [Extropolis] Religion

efc at disroot.org efc at disroot.org
Thu Aug 8 15:20:44 UTC 2024 

Random side effect?

On Thu, 8 Aug 2024, Keith Henson wrote:

> The last couple of posts have invoked mysticism.  OK, how did this
> human trait evolve?  You have only direct selection of the trait or as
> a side effect of something else that was selected.
>
> Keith
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 1:54 AM efc--- via extropy-chat
> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Keith Henson via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 4:33 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat
>>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Mysticism is the basis of religion.  All religion starts with a ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or society.
>>>
>>> Two recent US religions originated from women who had temporal lobe
>>> brain damage.
>>
>> Which ones? Would be an interesting read.
>>
>>>> This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to listen and they spread the word.
>>>
>>> As you well know, it is usually nonsense, not truth.  So why are human
>>> minds susceptible to this class of memes?
>>
>> That's why I think about religion as a mystic or transcendent "core"
>> that only applies to a small "elite" and a broader control system. It
>> could be that the ball is set in motion by the core, but this is then
>> captured by more "worldly" people who see it as an excellent way for
>> control.
>>
>>> Truth does not seem to be much involved.  Consider how many people
>>
>> I think that perhaps we can learn something from the deep, meaningful
>> experiences that some people have through religion, and maybe extract,
>> and apply it in a non-religious way to other people to enrich and deepen
>> the meaning of their lives.
>>
>>
>>> were deeply affected by the QAnon bs.  One of them was so affected
>>> that he went there armed and insisted on being let into the (non
>>> existent) basement.  I think he got 5 years in jail.  It was an
>>> amazing story.
>>>
>>> Keith
>>>
>>> PS  I once spent considerable time on a picket talking to a
>>> scientologist.  He noted that the members of this cult were subject to
>>> scam after scam, particularly MLM scams.  I suspect this is due to a
>>> genetic trait for gullibility, i.e., you are born with it, though I
>>> have speculated that people could be trained to be resistant to cults
>>> and other scams.  I would like to see someone investigate the genetic
>>> backgrounds of cult members.  It seems to me that people with Mormon
>>> family backgrounds are over represented in scientology, but I don't
>>> have numbers.  (Mormons definitely sorted out the gullible.)
>>>
>>>
>>>>  I can’t just say that a magic unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a movement—maybe a small cult of idiots.  But powerful religions are based on powerful truths.  As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible power based on the simple truth “everything looks different but it’s actually all one thing”.  Animism before that was based on the simple truth “different natural objects [gods] are different and have consistent patterns/behavior”.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining and
>>>>>> controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument above.
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and
>>>>> explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the antagonism
>>>>> between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
>>>>> ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
>>>>>
>>>>> But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics, which
>>>>> I think started with the above, but found their way to an incredibly
>>>>> strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for safety
>>>>> and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny minority so
>>>>> perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Memento mori.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58 PM Keith Henson <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>       The interesting question is why do humans have religions at all? I
>>>>>>       make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it is seldom
>>>>>>       that a given person has more than one of them, so you don't expect
>>>>>>       someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a Methodist. This
>>>>>>       brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism is a religion
>>>>>>       since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the common religious
>>>>>>       memes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       This classification does not help with the question of why humans have
>>>>>>       (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this is, religious
>>>>>>       memes (or something related) must have been important to survival in
>>>>>>       the Stone Age.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic memes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I think
>>>>>>       genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility to religious
>>>>>>       memes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       Keith
>>>>>>
>>>>>>       --
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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