[ExI] [Extropolis] Religion

Fri Aug 9 20:32:34 UTC 2024

Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but
his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and important
influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the
mysticism side.

I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the
various flavors of it, including a Daoist one.   As an aside, I have found
the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend
exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it.

Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it.

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an
> organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious.
>
> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi.  Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's
> mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion
> attached.
>
> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical
> experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking.  When
> you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature.  This can
> happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the
> mysticism piles up
>
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:
>>
>> > Mysticism is the basis of religion.  All religion starts with a
>> ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or
>> > society.  This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to
>> listen and they spread the word.  I can’t just say that a magic
>> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a
>> movement—maybe a small cult of idiots.  But powerful religions are
>> > based on powerful truths.  As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible
>> power based on the simple truth “everything looks different but
>> > it’s actually all one thing”.  Animism before that was based on the
>> simple truth “different natural objects [gods] are different and
>> > have consistent patterns/behavior”.
>>
>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying"
>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what
>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you
>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like "I
>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?".
>>
>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend to
>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have
>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but I'm
>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the
>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that
>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have
>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they?
>>
>> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >       On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
>> >
>> >       > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to why
>> early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining
>> >       and
>> >       > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of
>> control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument
>> >       above.
>> >
>> >       I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and
>> >       explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the
>> antagonism
>> >       between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
>> >
>> >       I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
>> >       ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
>> >
>> >       But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the mystics,
>> which
>> >       I think started with the above, but found their way to an
>> incredibly
>> >       strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for
>> safety
>> >       and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny
>> minority so
>> >       perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
>> >
>> >       > Memento mori.
>> >       >
>> >       > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58 PM Keith Henson <
>> hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >       >       The interesting question is why do humans have religions
>> at all? I
>> >       >       make a case that it is a side effect of selection for war.
>> >       >
>> >       >       Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e., it
>> is seldom
>> >       >       that a given person has more than one of them, so you
>> don't expect
>> >       >       someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a
>> Methodist. This
>> >       >       brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism
>> is a religion
>> >       >       since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the
>> common religious
>> >       >       memes.
>> >       >
>> >       >       This classification does not help with the question of
>> why humans have
>> >       >       (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this
>> is, religious
>> >       >       memes (or something related) must have been important to
>> survival in
>> >       >       the Stone Age.
>> >       >
>> >       >       Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic
>> memes.
>> >       >
>> >       >       Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war. I
>> think
>> >       >       genetic selection for war is the origin of susceptibility
>> to religious
>> >       >       memes.
>> >       >
>> >       >
>> >       >       Keith
>> >       >
>> >       >       --
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>> >       >
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