[ExI] [Extropolis] Religion

Will Steinberg steinberg.will at gmail.com
Fri Aug 9 21:09:53 UTC 2024 

Interesting, I didn’t know that, which I’m kind of embarrassed about,
because I’m really into it and have like 15 years of collected readings
I’ve done.

Re: that, this site is an incredible I Ching reference:
https://jamesdekorne.com/GBCh/GBCh.htm

There’s also a great one with original chinese including seal script, my
friend who speaks chinese showed me, I can find

On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 4:34 PM Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Quick bone to pick on Conficianism...I used to think the same thing, but
> his commentaries on the I Ching had an extremely heavy and important
> influence on its current incarnation, and should not be discounted on the
> mysticism side.
>
> I wasn't aware of this until I went pretty deeply on the I Ching and the
> various flavors of it, including a Daoist one.   As an aside, I have found
> the I Ching extremely valuable even as an atheist, and would recommend
> exploring it to anyone with even a passing curiosity about it.
>
> Philip K. Dick was also influenced heavily by it.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 9, 2024 at 1:12 PM Will Steinberg via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Well, I think western philosophy is widely spiritual, it's just not an
>> organized religion, though very many philosophers have been religious.
>>
>> Daoism had its prophet in Laozi.  Confucianism to me is not mystic, it's
>> mostly an oeconomic system with already-extant chinese nature religion
>> attached.
>>
>> I think nature religions are not from prophets but from small mystical
>> experiences that come from a totally different way of thinking.  When
>> you're completely immersed in nature, you think with nature.  This can
>> happen to anyone experiencing natural glory, but when it is constant, the
>> mysticism piles up
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 8, 2024 at 4:50 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024, Will Steinberg via extropy-chat wrote:
>>>
>>> > Mysticism is the basis of religion.  All religion starts with a
>>> ‘prophet’ type who realizes some kind of deep truth about reality or
>>> > society.  This truth is so compelling to people that they continue to
>>> listen and they spread the word.  I can’t just say that a magic
>>> > unicorn controls the world by pissing on a magic globe and make a
>>> movement—maybe a small cult of idiots.  But powerful religions are
>>> > based on powerful truths.  As I mentioned, monotheism had incredible
>>> power based on the simple truth “everything looks different but
>>> > it’s actually all one thing”.  Animism before that was based on the
>>> simple truth “different natural objects [gods] are different and
>>> > have consistent patterns/behavior”.
>>>
>>> Mysticism I think fits nicely with monotheism due to its "unifying"
>>> experience. I was thinking about mentioning it, but then I thought, what
>>> about if we go further back? As you say, spirits, animism etc. Do you
>>> still think those come from mystic experiences, or from accidents like
>>> "I
>>> pet this rock, and I caught 2 fish today, why is that?".
>>>
>>> I think it is very uncontroversial to say that "modern" religions tend
>>> to
>>> come from mysticism, but what about nature religions? Then you have
>>> of course the grey areas of Daoism and Confucianism, which to me (but
>>> I'm
>>> definitely not an expert on religion) seem to sit uncomfortably in the
>>> line between philosophy and religion (daoism). I could accept that
>>> Confucianism is leaning more towards philosophy, but I think they have
>>> some kind of ancestor worship, don't they?
>>>
>>> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2024 at 3:46 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
>>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >       On Tue, 6 Aug 2024, Dylan Distasio via extropy-chat wrote:
>>> >
>>> >       > There are alot of additional directions I could go in as to
>>> why early, primitive religions exist in terms of explaining
>>> >       and
>>> >       > controlling your environment (or rather the appearance of
>>> control) but I think the crux of my answer is in my argument
>>> >       above.
>>> >
>>> >       I agree. My bet would be that the origin is safety/control and
>>> >       explanation. Eventually it led to science, and hence the
>>> antagonism
>>> >       between religion and science. Religion feels threatened.
>>> >
>>> >       I'd also add that it's a nice tool to control society and
>>> >       ensure a homogeneous culture and cooperation.
>>> >
>>> >       But within the phenomenon of religion, you also have the
>>> mystics, which
>>> >       I think started with the above, but found their way to an
>>> incredibly
>>> >       strong internal experience, which kind of lessened the need for
>>> safety
>>> >       and explanation for them, but they have always been a tiny
>>> minority so
>>> >       perhaps not so relevant for the original question.
>>> >
>>> >       > Memento mori.
>>> >       >
>>> >       > On Tue, Aug 6, 2024 at 7:58 PM Keith Henson <
>>> hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >       >       The interesting question is why do humans have religions
>>> at all? I
>>> >       >       make a case that it is a side effect of selection for
>>> war.
>>> >       >
>>> >       >       Religion is a class of mutually exclusive memes. I.e.,
>>> it is seldom
>>> >       >       that a given person has more than one of them, so you
>>> don't expect
>>> >       >       someone who identifies as a Catholic to also be a
>>> Methodist. This
>>> >       >       brings you to the interesting conclusion that communism
>>> is a religion
>>> >       >       since being one makes it unlikely to have any of the
>>> common religious
>>> >       >       memes.
>>> >       >
>>> >       >       This classification does not help with the question of
>>> why humans have
>>> >       >       (or are infested) with such memes. From how common this
>>> is, religious
>>> >       >       memes (or something related) must have been important to
>>> survival in
>>> >       >       the Stone Age.
>>> >       >
>>> >       >       Religious memes seem to be descended from xenophobic
>>> memes.
>>> >       >
>>> >       >       Xenophobic memes are the first step in the path to war.
>>> I think
>>> >       >       genetic selection for war is the origin of
>>> susceptibility to religious
>>> >       >       memes.
>>> >       >
>>> >       >
>>> >       >       Keith
>>> >       >
>>> >       >       --
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