[ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?

Mon Feb 19 22:31:32 UTC 2024

On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 2:19 PM Brent Allsop via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
> Keth let me ask a question, to determine if you are completely qualia
> blind or not.
>

I have no idea.  I have never understood what "qualia" is.

My point is that simulation can reproduce in hardware anything that happens
in biological brains.

If you were switching from a simulation of the world to the real thing,
there would be no difference in the taste of a strawberry vs a simulated
strawberry.

Keith

>
> First, would you agree that redness is a quality of your subjective
> knowledge of a strawberry, a quality of something in your brain, not a
> quality of the strawberry.
>
> Also, Would you agree that we need to first discover what is responsible
> for your redness quality, and also what is responsible for your greenness
> quality.  THEN once we know the true color qualities of things (instead of
> just the seeming color qualities of things), we will then be able to
> engineer artificial conscious systems, using whatever is made of those
> redness and grenness qualities.  We will need to make such decisions as do
> we want the redness and greenness qualities to be engineered the same as
> Keith's subjective red and green knowledge, or do we want it to be
> red/green inverted.  (or any of another gazillion different falses color
> possibilities)
>
> In other words, unless you are thinking about what color palette to use,
> to represent subjective knowledge with, in any engineered system you are
> thinking of, your thinking is qualia blind.
>
> What is a redness quality?  Which of all our objective descriptions of
> stuff in the brain (even if only functional) is a description of redness?
> How can you design a system that uses your subjective redness without being
> able to know and subjectively demonstrate that?
>
> If you're not imagining which of these systems you plan on engineering,
> you are qualia blind.  As all of them will be possible.
>
> [image: strawberery_is_red.jpeg]
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> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 1:55 PM Keith Henson via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> "requires analog meat brains."
>>
>> I don't see any reason for this.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 19, 2024 at 10:05 AM spike jones via extropy-chat
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > From: extropy-chat <extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org> On Behalf
>> Of Brent Allsop via extropy-chat
>> > Subject: Re: [ExI] Would human uploads have emotions?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Spike,
>> >
>> > Your beliefs are hard to pin down.
>> >
>> > First you say: "I do not wish to believe that thought is substrate
>> dependent, and I don’t."  (Yay! ;)
>> >
>> > I'm wondering exactly what you mean with that "I don't"
>> >
>> > then you seem to contradict your desires with:
>> >
>> > "I hope not but think [swimming in endorphins]  is likely."  (I can
>> relate to this.)
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > And it is fascinating that you express this as desire, rather than just
>> stating factual beliefs, independent of any desires, like lots of people
>> seem to try to do.
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>> > Ja.  Brent a better way to state my belief is in terms of probability
>> or even betting.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > We know the game of political betting: vote your values, bet your
>> beliefs.  If you do that, in the long run, you win.  You win by taking
>> advantage of those who bet their values.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > It is my belief that thought is substrate independent.  I would pay 80
>> cents for that bet.  But I would only give about 25 to 30 cents that
>> emotion and the feelings associated with my mariachi band at Berkeley
>> experience is substrate independent.  It might be independent, but I fear
>> that somehow emotion is entirely dependent on substrate and requires analog
>> meat brains.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I don’t know how to express that on canonizer, and haven’t messed with
>> it.  Don’t give up on me Brent, getting up to speed on canonizer is on my
>> list.  It just isn’t at the top of my list and currently isn’t seriously
>> challenging anything up there at the top.  But times change.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Speaking of which… political betting is a kind of monetized Canonizer,
>> ja?  I had never thought of it that way until you brought up the influence
>> of desire vs belief.  Cool.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > spike
>> >
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>> > On Sun, Feb 18, 2024 at 10:34 PM spike jones via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Feb 17, 2024 at 8:54 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > >…I have been musing on mariachi band experiences and I have doubts that
>> > uploads will have experiences like humans… BillK
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > BillK I reluctantly agree.  I do not wish to believe that thought is
>> substrate dependent, and I don’t.  But I am compelled to think that human
>> emotion, as humans experience it, might require carbon-based meat brains,
>> swimming in hormones and endorphins.  I hope not, but think it is likely.
>> >
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>> >
>> > spike
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