[ExI] Open Individualism

[Stuart LaForge]

On 2024-01-04 09:08, Tara Maya via extropy-chat wrote:

> So it's like a "people's republic" where the combination of words 
> actually reverses the meaning of both. Open Individualism" is a 
> philosophy that is the inverse of the Enlightenment's ideal of 
> individualism; in fact, it's quite fine to sacrifice millions of 
> so-called "open individuals" if they are but clonal cells sacrificed by 
> the One Body for the Greater Good.

This is only problematic if the One Body and Greater Good are not truly 
transcendent movements, but merely other clonal cells trying to paint 
themselves and their personal agendas as such transcendent causes. The 
Enlightenment was largely a reaction to the personal agendas of kings 
and clergy being equated to God and country, when really they are just 
poor slobs like the rest of us.

That you see the dichotomy is an astute observation, but it is also 
quite ancient. I am not proselytizing or anything, but the Bhagavad Gita 
could be summarized as follows:

Once upon a time in India, a civil war was fought between two factions 
of a royal family, the Kauravas, and the Pandavas for succession to the 
throne. One of the five sons of a claimant named Pandu was named Arjuna. 
Prince Arjuna was a skilled warrior among the Pandavas. As this is a 
civil war, looking out over the battle field, Arjuna was distraught that 
so many of the opposing army were people he knew and loved like 
relatives, friends, and teachers. He shares his moment of angst with his 
friend Krishna, whereupon Krishna gives him a pep talk. First, he 
reveals himself to be an avatar of God, blowing Arjuna's mind by showing 
him his Universal Form.

Then Krishna teaches him some spiritual stuff like the 
interconnectedness and unity of all living beings. He also teaches him 
that the kernel of self within each being is divine and independent of 
the temporary material body it inhabits. Thus all consciousness is 
considered a fragment of the universal consciousness of Brahman; every 
soul is a facet of the same jewel.

Krishna then goes on to teach Arjuna about Dharma, by convincing him 
that because he is a warrior, it is Arjuna's sacred duty to kill the 
enemy even if they are family and friends who all have the same divine 
spark of universal consciousness as him. He should not be happy or sad 
for doing so but should know his role and do his job without attachment 
to the outcome. Then Krishna offers to drive Arjuna to the battle in his 
chariot and maybe go out for Tandoori afterwards. :)

> This is also, in my opinion, not much supported by the evidence of 
> evolution. Consciousness is an evolved trait of individuals to compete 
> for mates and resources with other individuals; cooperation between 
> conscious individuals has to benefit each participant independently. 
> This is very different than the "we all share one mind" philosophy.

But not so different from the "we all share one mind, but still have a 
duty to compete with each other" philosophy.

> It's not that we can['t] connect with others for the greater good... 
> but this is not "natural" or innate, we have to work hard for it.

Don't we work for the greater good simply by doing our jobs, working our 
ecological niches, while competing as necessary?

Stuart LaForge


> 
> Still, the AI summary is quite helpful, Bilik. (I wasn't sure if you 
> wanted to start a conversation about AI's grasp of philosophy or about 
> the philosophy itself.)
> 
> Tara Maya
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 4, 2024, at 8:28 AM, BillK via extropy-chat 
>> <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>> 
>> Let's see what an AI thinks about Open Individualism.
>> It reminds me of bits of Buddhism that I've heard about.
>> BillK
>> 
>> Explain Open Individualism -
>> 
>> Open individualism is a philosophical position that challenges the
>> traditional notion of personal identity as being tied to a specific
>> individual. According to open individualism, there is only one
>> conscious subject or entity that experiences all individual lives or
>> perspectives.
>> 
>> In other words, open individualism posits that all individuals are
>> fundamentally connected at the level of consciousness. From this
>> perspective, you and I are not separate individuals with distinct
>> identities but rather manifestations of the same underlying
>> consciousness or awareness.
>> 
>> Open individualism can be contrasted with other theories of personal
>> identity. For example, closed individualism holds that each person is
>> a distinct and separate individual with a unique identity that
>> persists over time. It suggests that personal identity is tied to
>> specific bodies, minds, or streams of consciousness.
>> 
>> Open individualism rejects the idea of personal identity as a separate
>> and isolated entity and instead argues for a more inclusive and
>> interconnected view of consciousness. Advocates of open individualism
>> often argue that the boundaries between individuals are illusory and
>> that the underlying reality is a single, unified consciousness
>> experiencing itself through different perspectives.
>> 
>> This perspective raises interesting philosophical questions about the
>> nature of personal identity, the relationship between individuals, and
>> the implications for ethics and moral responsibility. It challenges
>> our intuitive notions of selfhood and invites us to reconsider the
>> boundaries we typically draw between ourselves and others.
>> --------------
>> 
>> Tell me more --
>> 
>> Certainly! Here are some additional points to delve deeper into the
>> concept of open individualism:
>> 
>> 1. Unity of Consciousness: Open individualism posits that there is a
>> fundamental unity of consciousness that underlies all individual
>> experiences. It suggests that the sense of self and personal identity
>> we associate with our individual lives is an illusion, and that at a
>> deeper level, there is a single consciousness that is shared by all
>> beings.
>> 
>> 2. Metaphysical Implications: Open individualism raises metaphysical
>> questions about the nature of consciousness and its relationship to
>> the physical world. It challenges the idea that consciousness arises
>> solely from individual brains or minds and suggests that consciousness
>> is a fundamental and universal aspect of reality.
>> 
>> 3. Unity in Diversity: Open individualism views the diversity of human
>> experiences and perspectives as different expressions of the same
>> underlying consciousness. It emphasizes the interconnectedness and
>> interdependence of all individuals, suggesting that our apparent
>> differences are superficial and that we are ultimately part of a
>> larger, unified whole.
>> 
>> 4. Ethical Considerations: The concept of open individualism can have
>> implications for ethics and moral responsibility. It challenges the
>> idea of personal identity as the basis for moral distinctions and
>> calls for a more inclusive and compassionate approach to others. If we
>> recognize that we are all manifestations of the same consciousness, it
>> can foster a sense of empathy and interconnectedness that transcends
>> narrow self-interest.
>> 
>> 5. Mystical and Spiritual Traditions: The idea of open individualism
>> shares similarities with certain mystical and spiritual traditions.
>> Concepts such as nondualism, oneness, and universal consciousness can
>> be found in various philosophical and religious systems. Open
>> individualism aligns with the notion that our individual identities
>> are temporary and illusory, and that a deeper reality connects all
>> beings.
>> 
>> It's important to note that open individualism is a philosophical
>> position that is subject to debate and interpretation. While some find
>> it intellectually compelling, others may have reservations or
>> objections. Exploring this concept further can lead to fascinating
>> discussions about the nature of consciousness, personal identity, and
>> our place in the world.
>> ------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat