[ExI] upload, download, all around the townload

[BillK]

On Thu, 24 Apr 2025 at 11:03, Anton Sherwood via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> How much thought has been given to operating systems for fog?
> I can't see controlling foglets directly with my mind!
>
> The division of our brains into lobes presumably limits long-range
> neuronal links, and I wonder whether that limitation helps us.
> Uploading into a "flat space", in which such speedbumps are erased, is
> one way to make a mind not fit into the old mold.
> --
> *\\*  Anton Sherwood  *\\*  www.bendwavy.org
> _______________________________________________



I asked GPT-4o about this and it seems pretty clear that Ben is probably
correct to say that uploaded human brains would be changed so much that
they would be impossible to download back into a human brain. The uploaded
brain becomes impossibly different.
BillK

GPT-4o -

That’s an excellent question, and it touches on the profound implications
of mind uploading and its integration with advanced systems like utility
fogs. The answer depends on how tightly the uploaded consciousness becomes
integrated with its new environment and how far it evolves beyond the
constraints of biology. Let’s break this down into several considerations:
------------------------------
*1. Structural and Functional Divergence*

When an uploaded brain operates in a digital or utility fog environment, it
will likely undergo changes that could make transferring it back into a
biological body very challenging:

   -

   *Enhanced Cognition Beyond Human Limits*:
   - In a digital or fog-based existence, an uploaded brain might extend
      into non-biological systems, augmenting itself with computational
      resources, distributed thinking, or connections to external databases.
      - An uploaded brain could employ *parallel processing*, operate at
      speeds far beyond biological neurons, or develop entirely new cognitive
      processes.
      - By adopting these enhancements, the uploaded consciousness could
      diverge so significantly from its original structure that it might no
      longer "fit" within a biological brain's physical or computational limits.
   -

   *Loss of Biological Constraints*:
   - In these environments, consciousness is no longer tied to the
      limitations of the human brain, such as synaptic connectivity, memory
      bandwidth, or metabolism. An entity accustomed to living in a virtually
      unlimited medium might simply have grown far too complex to
"downsize" back
      into its original form.

------------------------------
*2. Adaptation to Non-Human Capabilities*

Living in a utility fog environment would fundamentally change how the
uploaded consciousness interacts with the world:

   -

   *Radical Freeform Thinking*:
   - In a utility fog, an uploaded brain could directly manipulate its
      surroundings to shape environments, create objects from thought,
or engage
      in entirely new forms of sensory and social interaction.
      - Such experiences might alter the brain’s operational paradigm in
      ways incompatible with a biological nervous system. For instance, the
      individual might no longer rely on the concept of fixed, limited sensory
      organs like eyes and ears but instead use the fog as an extension of its
      awareness.
   -

   *Body Independence*:
   - Without a biological body, an uploaded mind might discard neural
      processes tied to physical sensations or bodily functions (e.g., hunger,
      pain, or reflexes). Once these processes are removed, the act of
      reintegrating them into a biological body could become impossible—or at
      least deeply disorienting.

------------------------------
*3. The Evolutionary Gap*

Over time, an uploaded brain would likely evolve in ways that make it alien
to its original biological self:

   -

   *New Mental Architectures*:
   - Instead of human-like, linear thinking, the uploaded mind could adapt
      to *distributed cognition* or other alien architectures facilitated
      by the fog or digital substrate.
      - A brain accustomed to these new modes of thought may no longer
      function effectively if constrained to a human brain’s biological
      architecture.
   -

   *Integration With Foglets*:
   - An uploaded consciousness might become intimately entangled with the
      utility fog’s systems, embedding parts of its cognition or
memory directly
      into the fog network itself.
      - If critical aspects of the cognition reside in the fog, "detaching"
      the consciousness for reintegration into a biological organ
might fragment
      it or render it incomplete.

------------------------------
*4. Philosophical Considerations*

A more philosophical question arises: if an uploaded brain becomes so
fundamentally different, *is it still "human"?*

   -

   *Identity and Continuity*:
   - The experience of living in a limitless, malleable environment could
      stray so far from human norms that the entity may no longer identify as
      "human" or feel the need to return to a biological body.
      - Over time, it could discard human traits, like emotional responses
      or specific neurological biases, that are unnecessary for its
new existence.
   -

   *Desire to Return*:
   - Given the stark contrast between biological and post-biological
      existence, many uploaded entities might simply lose the *desire* to
      return to a body with limited senses, frailty, and mortality.

------------------------------
*5. Is Reversibility Technologically Possible?*

Assuming the returning entity *wants* to download into a biological brain,
could this process be technologically feasible?

   -

   *Practical Barriers*:
   - Reverse-engineering a biological brain and re-encoding the expanded or
      altered uploaded consciousness would require *perfectly mapping* and
      fully understanding every aspect of both biological and digital systems.
      - If the uploaded brain has been altered (e.g., expanded memory,
      enhanced processing, distributed systems), it’s like trying to fit a
      gigabyte-sized modern app into a 1980s floppy disk—compression may lose
      much of what constitutes the entity’s "self."
   -

   *Mismatch in Substrate*:
   - Biological brains are governed by chemistry, neurotransmitters, and
      other physical processes, while digital minds in a utility fog
environment
      might run on entirely different principles (e.g., binary computation,
      quantum states, etc.).
      - Translating between these inherently different mediums with full
      fidelity may be as complex as translating poetry across entirely
unrelated
      languages, with much of the meaning potentially lost.

------------------------------
*6. Hybrid Approaches*

Rather than downloading, a possible compromise could be:

   - *Cyborg Integration*:
      - Instead of fully returning to a biological body, the uploaded
      consciousness could inhabit *hybrid forms*, where a biological body
      is enhanced with utility fog components or other post-human technologies.
      - This would maintain some advantages of the fog environment while
      allowing partial re-inhabitation of biological form.

------------------------------
Summary: Can They Return to a Human Brain?

   1. *Biological Compatibility*: It would be highly technologically
   challenging—and possibly outright impossible—to re-integrate an uploaded
   consciousness into a human brain, particularly if the mind has evolved or
   expanded substantially in the fog.
   2. *Human Identity*: The uploaded brain may become so different from its
   original state that it might not even want or comprehend the idea of
   "returning" to a biological body.
   3. *Potential Hybrid Solutions*: Partial compromises might involve
   synthetic or hybrid forms, but full reversal to biological form appears
   unlikely.

In essence, once a mind has uploaded and adapted fully to the
post-biological realm, there’s a high chance it will have fundamentally
outgrown both the limitations and the needs of a biological existence.

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