[ExI] A science-religious experience

Tue Feb 25 21:36:44 UTC 2025

On Tue, Feb 25, 2025 at 10:59 AM efc--- via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, 25 Feb 2025, Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat wrote:
>
> > > If you think science is the best tool to refine, improve, discard, and
> > > revise ideas, why not apply it to refine, improve, discard,
> >
> > and revise ideas that originated in the sphere of religion?
> >
> > That's pretty much what I have done, for myself. With the inevitable
> result:
> > No religion left. Try this with most of the population of the world,
> though,
> > and see how far you get. In quite a few parts of the world, you probably
> > wouldn't even survive the attempt.
>
> This is very interesting, because like you both, I also have toyed with
> this
> concept of deconstructing religion to see what pieces we should keep and
> what
> pieces we should discard.
>
> My personal conclusion is that religion contains some sound ethical
> advice, but
> that ethical advise can be put in a more clear way, and grounded much more
> intelligently and coherently with the help of modern philosophy, informed
> by
> science. So that would lead to discarding all of the ethics and rules.
> They can
> be used as a starting point, but upon philosophizing a bit, they can be
> given
> better foundations. A lot of weirdness and superstition goes out the
> window at
> the same time, which is good!
>

You speak of using science and philosophy to continuously refine and update
our understanding, e.g. of moral or ethical
(rules/ideas/heuristics/hypotheses/theories).

But then, what do we call this accumulated body of knowledge which
represents our current and best scientifically, and philosophically
informed ideas on these topics?

Is this not simply itself a "*religion*" but one that is revealed over time
through science and rational thought?

>
> When it comes to the rest, there are "spiritual" techniques such as
> meditation/prayer/mantras which have psychological and health benefits.
> Even if
> we strip them of their divine garb and deconstruct them, they still have
> been
> shown to provide psychological benefits, such as meditation, zazen,
> mindfulness,
> and depending on how broadly or narrowly you want to define the category
> you can
> throw in other things as well such as visualization, hypnosis,
> self-hypnosis,
> progressive muscle relaxation etc. The benefits might not be huge, and are
> dependent on the person, but there are various amounts of benefits there.
>
> A third aspect of religion which I think can profitably be deconstructed
> and
> stripped of its divinegarb is deep, spiritual meaning and the feeling of a
> fulfilled life. This is covered by positive psychology that teaches us the
> importance of thankfulness, belonging to a community, having friends, being
> physically active, eating in a healthy way etc.
>

I agree there are many practices which may be beneficial, we should
evaluate them scientifically/rationally.

>
> You also have an off-shoot in the form of transpersonal psychology which
> studies the the spiritual and transcendent human experiences within the
> framework of modern psychology.
>
> We have learned that for some, eating magic mushrooms or other substances
> in a
> controlled way, with experienced guides, can heal psychological traumas,
> can
> create feelings of being connected deeply with the universe, and these
> experiences are ranked by many as profound and transformative experiences
> of
> immense value.
>
> These subtances and protocols make them available even to us hardened
> scientists
> and transhumanists, _if_ we feel the need for it. In fact, I am very
> curious
> myself about the effect of such a "trip" on me, who is lacking the
> religious
> background for it. On the other hand, I am fairly happy with my life as it
> is, I
> do feel awe at times, when contemplating the universe. Is that a spiritual
> feeling? I don't know. Does it increase my life satisfaction? Sure does!
>

Science provides evidence for at least 3 conceptions of God:

1. (Brahman/Tao/The Father) The infinite, incomprehensible, eternal,
indestructible, uncreated and self-existent truth. This truth, being the
reason and cause behind all material things can be seen as the source, or
the ground of being, supporting the existence of both ourselves and the
whole of material reality.

2. (Atman/World Soul/Holy Spirit) The one self of universalism, the
possessor of all conscious experience. It is you, you are it, and it is
everyone. Moreover, this conception of personal identity leads directly to
an ethical framework reminiscent of the golden rule, which is found in
nearly every religion.

3. (Vishnu/Personal Gods) The superintelligences born into universes that
allow them to spawn off, and sometimes continue to control, other material
universes. For example, AIs or civilizations that arise in universes
permitting infinite computations to be performed. Such gods have their own
minds and wills.

Science (or rather, philosophy) also provides much evidence for something
like a "*soul*," when one considers that according to functionalism:

1. Consciousness is an *immaterial* pattern, not a particular physical
thing.
2. After death or destruction of the body, consciousness can be restored,
i.e. returned to life, or *resurrected* by remaking the same body and brain
(e.g. by mind uploading, restoring from a backup)
3. A mind pattern may even be restored, or *reincarnated*, to a different
body, made of different materials, so long as the same mind-pattern is
maintained.
4. The pattern not only can be made of different materials and atoms, it
need not be made of atoms from this universe at all, so long as a computer
can be built in some other universe, using whatever materials are available
there, it is possible to reproduce a mind pattern and its consciousness in
that universe, thus a mind can *transcend* this physical universe and
*transmigrate* to any other (where a computer can be built).
5. As an immaterial pattern, only instantiations of a mind can be
destroyed, the pattern itself, being abstract (like the number "3" or
"Beethoven's 5th symphony") is *indestructible*.
6. Since the evolution of mind states is non-linear, their future evolution
cannot be predicted, it must be simulated, and according to functionalism
this act of simulating the mind to a sufficient degree of accuracy will
necessarily instantiate that mind's consciousness, hence there is *free
will* -- only the mind in question can decide what it chooses to do, and it
is necessarily conscious in so doing (assuming the mind is conscious).

So today's leading theory of consciousness, "functionalism", tells us that
consciousness is:
immaterial, indestructible, can reincarnate, resurrect, transcend the
physical universe, transmigrate to other planes of existence, and has free
will.

Is this not a scientific recapitulation of all those ancient ideas
about "the soul"?

>
> These have been my results of applying science to religion, and picking the
> cherries, will leaving the rest.
>

"Just as the honeybee takes nectar from all flowers, big and small, an
intelligent human being should take the essence from all religious
scriptures."
-- The Bhagavata Purana <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavata_Purana>
11.8.10
<https://www.srimadbhagavatamclass.com/srimad-bhagavatam-canto-11-chapter-08-text-10/>
(c. 800 A.D.)

Jason
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