[ExI] immortal

[Will Steinberg]

Being “post-scarcity” is a matter of human psychological, legal, and
spiritual development, not technological.

Life and humans as they are will always expand to fill niches, and if we
live in a giant computer and our minds gain 1000000x the capacity then the
thieves and the power-hungry will take 1000000x as much.

The solutions, if they are even possible (may just be a fact of physical
reality), is to 1) spur human psychological development so there are as few
assholes as possible and 2) create legal (in a computer this may be much
easier, since if you did decide to upload (I wouldn’t) it means you have to
give up a lot of autonomy) barriers to power consolidation.

Of course the fact is that as is someone will actually OWN or at least
steward the computers that you arw theoretically talking about uploading
into.  This entity will be the one with the power, the one who gets the
most.  Likely unless we see said psychospiritual shifts in humanity there
will be various technocratic walled gardens that people give up agency to
enter in exchange for the benefits of uploading.

And also of course no matter whether humanity somehow owns the jupiter
brain collectively and equally, someone on the OUTSIDE of the brain will
have incredible power over those inside.  And then the brain inhabitants
will have to develop defenses against those outsiders and vice versa.  And
if we do own it collectively you run into a mob rule type situation where
the common viewpoint might actually be horrible.

So yeah I don’t believe a utopia is thermodynamicslly possible.  Maybe
there will be a sense of that if an unfathomably powerful and benevolent AI
has the power, but that’s exactly what it would be—peace at the cost of
losing power/agency.

If there were free lunches then perpetual motion machines would exist too.
I don’t believe these are problems that can be solved in an this universe.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 4:11 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 at 20:39, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> 1) Will you, as you do today, own the hardware you run on, so there's no
>> such thing as a "rented" existence?
>>
>> 2) How will you pay, in general, in one or ten thousand years?  Will
>> money in a form recognizable to those today still exist?  Will economics
>> run on reputation instead?  Will there be an abundance economy that gives
>> everyone a universal basic income sufficient to maintain existence?
>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>
>
>
> Yes, it will be a post-scarcity abundance economy. Pretty much nothing
> like our present civilisation.
> Now, designing how our future civilisation will look is not a five-minute
> task!  Let AI do the hard work.  :)
>
> First, I asked Perplexity AI to do a technical report on the future
> uploaded humanity economy.
> The report it produced was detailed, full of information, but pretty
> difficult to read.
>
> So I asked Perplexity to use the report and rewrite it as a description
> for a visitor to that world.
> That produced a fun description of our future!  See below.
> BillK
>
> *Perplexity AI - *
> Welcome to the Digital Consciousness Economy
>
> *A World Where Minds Live Forever*
>
> Imagine stepping into a civilization where death is optional and
> consciousness exists beyond the physical body. You've arrived in a world
> where human minds have been successfully uploaded into vast computational
> networks, creating a thriving digital society that has sustained itself for
> thousands of years.
> How This World Works
>
> In this reality, your consciousness—your memories, personality, thoughts,
> and experiences—can be transferred into powerful computer systems when your
> biological body reaches its end. But unlike the chaotic digital wilderness
> you might expect, this world operates on a sophisticated *subscription-based
> economy* designed to keep millions of digital minds active and thriving
> across millennia.
> The Economics of Digital Existence
>
> Think of it like a cosmic Netflix for consciousness. Every uploaded mind
> exists within a *tiered service system*:
>
>    -
>
>    *Basic Digital Life* is free for everyone—you get standard processing
>    power, a simple virtual environment, and the fundamental right to exist
>    digitally
>    -
>
>    *Enhanced Living* requires a monthly subscription—offering faster
>    thinking, richer virtual worlds, and premium experiences
>    -
>
>    *Luxury Existence* provides unlimited computational resources,
>    exclusive digital spaces, and access to the most advanced simulations
>    imaginable
>
> Your Digital Lifestyle
>
> As a visitor, you'd discover that uploaded minds don't just passively
> exist—they *actively participate in vibrant virtual economies*. Digital
> citizens work in computational jobs, create virtual art, build immersive
> worlds, and trade unique digital assets. Some minds specialize in complex
> problem-solving, others become virtual entertainers, and many pursue
> artistic endeavors impossible in physical reality.
>
> The most remarkable aspect? *Time itself becomes flexible*. Premium
> subscribers can accelerate their thinking to experience years of subjective
> time in mere hours, while others might slow down to savor particularly
> meaningful moments.
> Governance by Algorithm and Community
>
> This world operates without traditional governments. Instead, *Decentralized
> Autonomous Organizations (DAOs)* manage resources through collective
> decision-making. Every uploaded mind has voting power based on their
> contributions to the community—whether through computational work, creative
> output, or community service.
>
> *Algorithmic systems* automatically manage the massive infrastructure,
> scaling computing resources up and down based on demand, optimizing energy
> usage, and ensuring fair access to digital resources. It's democracy
> enhanced by artificial intelligence, creating remarkably efficient and
> equitable resource distribution.
> A Post-Scarcity Paradise (Almost)
>
> The physical world has largely achieved *post-scarcity economics*—automated
> factories and self-replicating robots handle all material production with
> minimal human oversight. Energy comes primarily from space-based solar
> collectors and fusion reactors, providing abundant power for the
> computational networks hosting billions of minds.
>
> However, true scarcity still exists in the digital realm: *attention,
> creativity, and unique experiences* remain valuable commodities. The most
> talented digital artists, compelling storytellers, and innovative thinkers
> command premium prices for their work.
> Sustainable for Millennia
>
> What makes this system remarkable is its *thousand-year sustainability*.
> Massive endowment funds generate investment returns that support basic
> operations indefinitely. The entire infrastructure is designed for
> perpetual renewal—when hardware becomes obsolete, automated systems
> seamlessly migrate minds to newer, more efficient platforms.
>
> Cross-generational contracts allow people in the physical world to pre-pay
> for extended digital existence, similar to life insurance but for digital
> immortality. Meanwhile, the uploaded minds themselves contribute to the
> economy, ensuring the system remains self-sustaining across centuries.
> The Social Experience
>
> Far from being a lonely digital existence, this world buzzes with *social
> activity*. Uploaded minds form communities, maintain relationships
> spanning centuries, and create new forms of art and culture impossible in
> biological form. Some choose to exist in realistic simulations of
> historical periods, others explore fantastical realms limited only by
> imagination.
>
> The most profound aspect of this society is its *continuity of culture
> and knowledge*. Minds that have existed for hundreds of years serve as
> living libraries, mentoring newer arrivals and preserving human
> civilization's accumulated wisdom.
> A New Form of Civilization
>
> You're witnessing humanity's next evolutionary step—not biological
> evolution, but *civilizational evolution*. This is a society that has
> solved mortality, resource scarcity, and many forms of human suffering
> while maintaining the essential elements that make us human: creativity,
> relationships, growth, and the pursuit of meaning.
>
> Welcome to a world where consciousness is currency, time is a luxury, and
> human potential is truly unlimited.
>
> --------------------------------------
>
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>
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