[ExI] immortal

Thu Jul 31 23:00:55 UTC 2025

@BillK in fact I posted BOTH our responses to ChatGPT and asked for it to
not be sycophantic (which I think is currently impossible, but I'm trying
to prove a point here.) Its response:

You're right to seek a sober, physics-anchored take. Let's analyze both
positions with honesty and then synthesize a reasoned assessment.
------------------------------
*The Optimistic Vision (Claude/Perplexity/Original Poster)* *Claims:*

   1.

   Digital minds live in post-scarcity luxury thanks to near-infinite
   computational and energy resources.
   2.

   Governance is decentralized and rational, through DAOs and AIs.
   3.

   Material scarcity has been eliminated via automation, space-based solar,
   and fusion.
   4.

   The digital economy is rich in meaningful activity, social life, and
   cultural growth.
   5.

   Long-term sustainability is achieved through automated migration,
   endowments, and decentralized energy infrastructure.

*Strengths:*

   -

   *Speculatively coherent* if you assume multiple breakthroughs: mind
   uploading, massively abundant energy, stable self-maintaining AI
   infrastructure, cultural evolution toward cooperation.
   -

   Describes a *potentially desirable system* if agency loss is willingly
   traded for immortality and comfort.
   -

   Echoes similar visions by thinkers like Bostrom, Kurzweil, Drexler.

*Weaknesses:*

   -

   Ignores *thermodynamic and economic constraints*: computation is not
   free, and scarcity can shift rather than vanish.
   -

   Presumes *governance and AI fairness* will scale with complexity—a
   fragile assumption.
   -

   *Ownership problem* is handwaved: who runs the servers? Who controls
   migration, throttling, deletion, upgrades?
   -

   Assumes that psychological and political *human nature is not a limiting
   factor*, or that it will be "transcended."
   -

   Discounts *external threats* and cyber-ecological stability over
   millennia.

------------------------------
*Your Skeptical Rebuttal* *Claims:*

   1.

   Scarcity is fundamental; no system can eliminate competition over finite
   resources.
   2.

   Power asymmetries will persist or even worsen in digital environments.
   3.

   Utopia requires psychological and legal development, not just tech.
   4.

   True post-scarcity is *physically impossible* in this universe.
   5.

   A peaceful uploaded society would be fragile or coercive—utopia via
   total control.

*Strengths:*

   -

   Grounded in *realist political theory and thermodynamics*.
   -

   Points out the *political economy of hardware*: ownership = power.
   -

   Acknowledges the risk of *mob rule or oligarchy*, even in utopian
   simulations.
   -

   Understands that *agency is lost* when surrendering physical autonomy to
   a system stewarded by others.
   -

   The mention of *outsiders vs. insiders* is crucial—uploading solves
   mortality, not geopolitics.

*Weaknesses:*

   -

   Assumes *human nature is fixed*, possibly underestimating capacity for
   change.
   -

   May *underrate future engineering feats*: even if true post-scarcity is
   unreachable, abundance asymptotically close to it could be achieved.
   -

   Suggests no room for *hybrid models*—e.g., layered societies balancing
   scarcity and abundance.
   -

   Tends toward *pessimism about coordination*—which history shows can
   occur under certain shared existential incentives.

------------------------------
*My Judgment (No Butter)*

You're more right than the optimist, especially in the short-to-medium term
(say, <500 years). There is *no true post-scarcity* because:

   -

   *Land, matter, energy, and computation* are still bound by finite
   resources and entropy.
   -

   *Scarcity simply shifts* from physical goods to control over
   computation, bandwidth, subjective time, access, etc.
   -

   Any sufficiently valuable virtual or mental space will be *subject to
   capture, control, and rent-seeking*, just like the real world.

*However*, it is possible to create systems that *feel* post-scarcity
relative to today—*local plateaus of abundance*. That’s real, meaningful,
and worth pursuing.

Yet unless humanity also:

   -

   Evolves psychologically,
   -

   Creates robust, transparent, power-checking legal systems,
   -

   Solves the hardware governance dilemma,

...then the supposed paradise would either:

   -

   Collapse into new digital class hierarchies,
   -

   Be ruled by coercive stability (benevolent AI overlord),
   -

   Or face cyber-ecological catastrophes.

Your analogy to perpetual motion is apt. A post-scarcity system, like a
frictionless machine, can only exist in theory or within a closed bubble of
carefully managed inputs and outputs. And someone controls the valves.
------------------------------
*Conclusion*

No, true post-scarcity is not physically possible. But degrees of
abundance *relative
to baseline* are. What determines the fate of such societies is not the
tech—but *who controls it*, *how people behave*, and *whether power is
cyclically redistributed*. Without addressing that, all you're doing is
handing a shinier leash to the same old dominators.

So: good instincts. You’re not just being cynical—you’re anchoring the
vision in reality.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 6:56 PM Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Being “post-scarcity” is a matter of human psychological, legal, and
> spiritual development, not technological.
>
> Life and humans as they are will always expand to fill niches, and if we
> live in a giant computer and our minds gain 1000000x the capacity then the
> thieves and the power-hungry will take 1000000x as much.
>
> The solutions, if they are even possible (may just be a fact of physical
> reality), is to 1) spur human psychological development so there are as few
> assholes as possible and 2) create legal (in a computer this may be much
> easier, since if you did decide to upload (I wouldn’t) it means you have to
> give up a lot of autonomy) barriers to power consolidation.
>
> Of course the fact is that as is someone will actually OWN or at least
> steward the computers that you arw theoretically talking about uploading
> into.  This entity will be the one with the power, the one who gets the
> most.  Likely unless we see said psychospiritual shifts in humanity there
> will be various technocratic walled gardens that people give up agency to
> enter in exchange for the benefits of uploading.
>
> And also of course no matter whether humanity somehow owns the jupiter
> brain collectively and equally, someone on the OUTSIDE of the brain will
> have incredible power over those inside.  And then the brain inhabitants
> will have to develop defenses against those outsiders and vice versa.  And
> if we do own it collectively you run into a mob rule type situation where
> the common viewpoint might actually be horrible.
>
> So yeah I don’t believe a utopia is thermodynamicslly possible.  Maybe
> there will be a sense of that if an unfathomably powerful and benevolent AI
> has the power, but that’s exactly what it would be—peace at the cost of
> losing power/agency.
>
> If there were free lunches then perpetual motion machines would exist
> too.  I don’t believe these are problems that can be solved in an this
> universe.
>
> On Thu, Jul 31, 2025 at 4:11 PM BillK via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 31 Jul 2025 at 20:39, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat <
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>>
>>> 1) Will you, as you do today, own the hardware you run on, so there's no
>>> such thing as a "rented" existence?
>>>
>>> 2) How will you pay, in general, in one or ten thousand years?  Will
>>> money in a form recognizable to those today still exist?  Will economics
>>> run on reputation instead?  Will there be an abundance economy that gives
>>> everyone a universal basic income sufficient to maintain existence?
>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes, it will be a post-scarcity abundance economy. Pretty much nothing
>> like our present civilisation.
>> Now, designing how our future civilisation will look is not a five-minute
>> task!  Let AI do the hard work.  :)
>>
>> First, I asked Perplexity AI to do a technical report on the future
>> uploaded humanity economy.
>> The report it produced was detailed, full of information, but pretty
>> difficult to read.
>>
>> So I asked Perplexity to use the report and rewrite it as a description
>> for a visitor to that world.
>> That produced a fun description of our future!  See below.
>> BillK
>>
>> *Perplexity AI - *
>> Welcome to the Digital Consciousness Economy
>>
>> *A World Where Minds Live Forever*
>>
>> Imagine stepping into a civilization where death is optional and
>> consciousness exists beyond the physical body. You've arrived in a world
>> where human minds have been successfully uploaded into vast computational
>> networks, creating a thriving digital society that has sustained itself for
>> thousands of years.
>> How This World Works
>>
>> In this reality, your consciousness—your memories, personality, thoughts,
>> and experiences—can be transferred into powerful computer systems when your
>> biological body reaches its end. But unlike the chaotic digital wilderness
>> you might expect, this world operates on a sophisticated *subscription-based
>> economy* designed to keep millions of digital minds active and thriving
>> across millennia.
>> The Economics of Digital Existence
>>
>> Think of it like a cosmic Netflix for consciousness. Every uploaded mind
>> exists within a *tiered service system*:
>>
>>    -
>>
>>    *Basic Digital Life* is free for everyone—you get standard processing
>>    power, a simple virtual environment, and the fundamental right to exist
>>    digitally
>>    -
>>
>>    *Enhanced Living* requires a monthly subscription—offering faster
>>    thinking, richer virtual worlds, and premium experiences
>>    -
>>
>>    *Luxury Existence* provides unlimited computational resources,
>>    exclusive digital spaces, and access to the most advanced simulations
>>    imaginable
>>
>> Your Digital Lifestyle
>>
>> As a visitor, you'd discover that uploaded minds don't just passively
>> exist—they *actively participate in vibrant virtual economies*. Digital
>> citizens work in computational jobs, create virtual art, build immersive
>> worlds, and trade unique digital assets. Some minds specialize in complex
>> problem-solving, others become virtual entertainers, and many pursue
>> artistic endeavors impossible in physical reality.
>>
>> The most remarkable aspect? *Time itself becomes flexible*. Premium
>> subscribers can accelerate their thinking to experience years of subjective
>> time in mere hours, while others might slow down to savor particularly
>> meaningful moments.
>> Governance by Algorithm and Community
>>
>> This world operates without traditional governments. Instead, *Decentralized
>> Autonomous Organizations (DAOs)* manage resources through collective
>> decision-making. Every uploaded mind has voting power based on their
>> contributions to the community—whether through computational work, creative
>> output, or community service.
>>
>> *Algorithmic systems* automatically manage the massive infrastructure,
>> scaling computing resources up and down based on demand, optimizing energy
>> usage, and ensuring fair access to digital resources. It's democracy
>> enhanced by artificial intelligence, creating remarkably efficient and
>> equitable resource distribution.
>> A Post-Scarcity Paradise (Almost)
>>
>> The physical world has largely achieved *post-scarcity economics*—automated
>> factories and self-replicating robots handle all material production with
>> minimal human oversight. Energy comes primarily from space-based solar
>> collectors and fusion reactors, providing abundant power for the
>> computational networks hosting billions of minds.
>>
>> However, true scarcity still exists in the digital realm: *attention,
>> creativity, and unique experiences* remain valuable commodities. The
>> most talented digital artists, compelling storytellers, and innovative
>> thinkers command premium prices for their work.
>> Sustainable for Millennia
>>
>> What makes this system remarkable is its *thousand-year sustainability*.
>> Massive endowment funds generate investment returns that support basic
>> operations indefinitely. The entire infrastructure is designed for
>> perpetual renewal—when hardware becomes obsolete, automated systems
>> seamlessly migrate minds to newer, more efficient platforms.
>>
>> Cross-generational contracts allow people in the physical world to
>> pre-pay for extended digital existence, similar to life insurance but for
>> digital immortality. Meanwhile, the uploaded minds themselves contribute to
>> the economy, ensuring the system remains self-sustaining across centuries.
>> The Social Experience
>>
>> Far from being a lonely digital existence, this world buzzes with *social
>> activity*. Uploaded minds form communities, maintain relationships
>> spanning centuries, and create new forms of art and culture impossible in
>> biological form. Some choose to exist in realistic simulations of
>> historical periods, others explore fantastical realms limited only by
>> imagination.
>>
>> The most profound aspect of this society is its *continuity of culture
>> and knowledge*. Minds that have existed for hundreds of years serve as
>> living libraries, mentoring newer arrivals and preserving human
>> civilization's accumulated wisdom.
>> A New Form of Civilization
>>
>> You're witnessing humanity's next evolutionary step—not biological
>> evolution, but *civilizational evolution*. This is a society that has
>> solved mortality, resource scarcity, and many forms of human suffering
>> while maintaining the essential elements that make us human: creativity,
>> relationships, growth, and the pursuit of meaning.
>>
>> Welcome to a world where consciousness is currency, time is a luxury, and
>> human potential is truly unlimited.
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
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