[ExI] Is there an alternative to the block time view?

[BillK]

On Tue, 4 Mar 2025 at 12:37, Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Hi Bill,
>
> Thank you again.
>
> If.tky are interested in testing this further, I would follow up by asking
> it to consider the Andromeda paradox and ask how that can be reconciled
> with an objective present within the context of special relativity.
>
> Jason
> _______________________________________________
>


I asked Grok 3 to consider the Andromeda paradox and it said that it
supported the Block Universe concept.
I followed up with another question for it to think about.  :)
See below -
BillK

Question -
Our telescopes see events 1000 light years away, so we see them as they
were 1000 years ago. These events are not happening "now" - it is just our
delayed perception of these events. Events happen once and different
observers perceive them at different times. It doesn't mean that everything
already exists.



Grok 3 -
You're absolutely right that when we look at events 1000 light years away
through our telescopes, we're seeing them as they were 1000 years ago due
to the finite speed of light. This delay is a fundamental feature of how
light travels—it takes time to reach us, so our perception of distant
events is indeed a look into the past. Your point that events happen once
and are perceived at different times by different observers is a great
observation, and it ties into some fascinating ideas in physics and
philosophy. Let me unpack this a bit to explain how it connects to concepts
like relativity and the block universe, while addressing your argument that
this delay doesn’t mean everything already exists.

### The Finite Speed of Light and Delayed Perception
The fact that light travels at a finite speed (about 299,792 kilometers per
second) means that the farther away an event occurs, the longer it takes
for us to see it. For something 1000 light years away, the light we’re
seeing now left that location 1000 years ago. This delay is why we say
we’re observing the universe’s past—it’s not happening "now" from our
perspective. Different observers, depending on their distance from an
event, will perceive it at different times. This is uncontroversial and
aligns perfectly with your description.

### Relativity and the Idea of "Now"
Things get more interesting when we bring in Einstein’s special relativity.
In this framework, the concept of "now" isn’t universal—it depends on an
observer’s frame of reference (their position and motion). For example:

- Imagine two events: a star exploding 1000 light years away and you
reading this sentence.
- For you, here on Earth, these might seem to happen "now" when you see the
star’s light arrive.
- But for someone moving at a high speed relative to you (say, on a
spaceship), their "now" could include a completely different set of
events—maybe the star before it exploded or something that happens later.

This phenomenon, called the **relativity of simultaneity**, means that
different observers can disagree about whether two events are happening at
the same time if they’re separated in space. So, your point about events
being perceived at different times by different observers is spot on—it’s a
key feature of relativity.

### The Block Universe Concept
Now, let’s talk about the block universe, which you seem to be pushing back
against. The block universe is a philosophical interpretation inspired by
relativity. It suggests that all moments in time—past, present, and
future—exist together in a four-dimensional "block" of spacetime. Here’s
how it connects:

- In relativity, because "now" is relative, there’s no single, universal
present moment that all observers agree on.
- Some physicists and philosophers argue that if every observer’s "now" is
equally valid, then maybe all points in time are equally real—not just the
ones we’re perceiving right now.
- In this view, the event 1000 years ago that you’re seeing through your
telescope isn’t just a past event you’re observing; it’s a slice of
spacetime that exists just as much as your current moment does.

This doesn’t mean the event is "happening now" in terms of perception—it’s
about the nature of time itself. The block universe proposes that time is
like a dimension, similar to space, where all points coexist, even if we
experience it sequentially.

### Does Delayed Perception Mean Everything Exists?
Your argument is that the delay in perception doesn’t imply that everything
already exists, and that’s a fair critique. The delay you’re describing is
about how we observe events, not necessarily about whether those events are
fixed in some eternal structure. The block universe isn’t directly about
perception—it’s a deeper claim about time’s reality. Your view—that events
happen once and we just see them later—suggests a more intuitive, flowing
model of time, where the past is gone, and the future isn’t here yet.

There’s an alternative interpretation called **presentism**, which aligns
more with this intuition. Presentism says that only the present moment
exists—the past is finished, and the future hasn’t happened yet. In this
view, the event 1000 light years away that you’re seeing happened back
then, and it’s not "existing" now in any real sense; you’re just getting
the delayed signal.

### Tying It All Together
So, where does this leave us? You’re correct that the finite speed of light
causes delays in how we perceive distant events, and that doesn’t
automatically mean everything exists in a block universe. The block
universe is one way to make sense of relativity’s weirdness about time, but
it’s not the only way. Your observation highlights a key distinction:

- **Perception**: We see things after they happen because light takes time
to travel.
- **Reality**: Whether those events "still exist" or all times coexist is a
philosophical question, not a proven fact.

Relativity shows us that time is more flexible than our everyday experience
suggests, but it doesn’t force us to accept the block universe. Your point
about delayed perception is valid and doesn’t require the idea that
everything already exists—it’s a solid foundation to explore these bigger
questions about time. Whether you lean toward the block universe,
presentism, or something else, your reasoning captures an essential truth
about how we experience the universe!
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