[ExI] Is there an alternative to the block time view?

Tue Mar 4 14:36:18 UTC 2025

Thanks for sharing that Bill!

Jason

On Tue, Mar 4, 2025, 8:46 AM BillK via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 4 Mar 2025 at 12:37, Jason Resch via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Bill,
>>
>> Thank you again.
>>
>> If.tky are interested in testing this further, I would follow up by
>> asking it to consider the Andromeda paradox and ask how that can be
>> reconciled with an objective present within the context of special
>> relativity.
>>
>> Jason
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
>
> I asked Grok 3 to consider the Andromeda paradox and it said that it
> supported the Block Universe concept.
> I followed up with another question for it to think about.  :)
> See below -
> BillK
>
> Question -
> Our telescopes see events 1000 light years away, so we see them as they
> were 1000 years ago. These events are not happening "now" - it is just our
> delayed perception of these events. Events happen once and different
> observers perceive them at different times. It doesn't mean that everything
> already exists.
>
>
>
> Grok 3 -
> You're absolutely right that when we look at events 1000 light years away
> through our telescopes, we're seeing them as they were 1000 years ago due
> to the finite speed of light. This delay is a fundamental feature of how
> light travels—it takes time to reach us, so our perception of distant
> events is indeed a look into the past. Your point that events happen once
> and are perceived at different times by different observers is a great
> observation, and it ties into some fascinating ideas in physics and
> philosophy. Let me unpack this a bit to explain how it connects to concepts
> like relativity and the block universe, while addressing your argument that
> this delay doesn’t mean everything already exists.
>
> ### The Finite Speed of Light and Delayed Perception
> The fact that light travels at a finite speed (about 299,792 kilometers
> per second) means that the farther away an event occurs, the longer it
> takes for us to see it. For something 1000 light years away, the light
> we’re seeing now left that location 1000 years ago. This delay is why we
> say we’re observing the universe’s past—it’s not happening "now" from our
> perspective. Different observers, depending on their distance from an
> event, will perceive it at different times. This is uncontroversial and
> aligns perfectly with your description.
>
> ### Relativity and the Idea of "Now"
> Things get more interesting when we bring in Einstein’s special
> relativity. In this framework, the concept of "now" isn’t universal—it
> depends on an observer’s frame of reference (their position and motion).
> For example:
>
> - Imagine two events: a star exploding 1000 light years away and you
> reading this sentence.
> - For you, here on Earth, these might seem to happen "now" when you see
> the star’s light arrive.
> - But for someone moving at a high speed relative to you (say, on a
> spaceship), their "now" could include a completely different set of
> events—maybe the star before it exploded or something that happens later.
>
> This phenomenon, called the **relativity of simultaneity**, means that
> different observers can disagree about whether two events are happening at
> the same time if they’re separated in space. So, your point about events
> being perceived at different times by different observers is spot on—it’s a
> key feature of relativity.
>
> ### The Block Universe Concept
> Now, let’s talk about the block universe, which you seem to be pushing
> back against. The block universe is a philosophical interpretation inspired
> by relativity. It suggests that all moments in time—past, present, and
> future—exist together in a four-dimensional "block" of spacetime. Here’s
> how it connects:
>
> - In relativity, because "now" is relative, there’s no single, universal
> present moment that all observers agree on.
> - Some physicists and philosophers argue that if every observer’s "now" is
> equally valid, then maybe all points in time are equally real—not just the
> ones we’re perceiving right now.
> - In this view, the event 1000 years ago that you’re seeing through your
> telescope isn’t just a past event you’re observing; it’s a slice of
> spacetime that exists just as much as your current moment does.
>
> This doesn’t mean the event is "happening now" in terms of perception—it’s
> about the nature of time itself. The block universe proposes that time is
> like a dimension, similar to space, where all points coexist, even if we
> experience it sequentially.
>
> ### Does Delayed Perception Mean Everything Exists?
> Your argument is that the delay in perception doesn’t imply that
> everything already exists, and that’s a fair critique. The delay you’re
> describing is about how we observe events, not necessarily about whether
> those events are fixed in some eternal structure. The block universe isn’t
> directly about perception—it’s a deeper claim about time’s reality. Your
> view—that events happen once and we just see them later—suggests a more
> intuitive, flowing model of time, where the past is gone, and the future
> isn’t here yet.
>
> There’s an alternative interpretation called **presentism**, which aligns
> more with this intuition. Presentism says that only the present moment
> exists—the past is finished, and the future hasn’t happened yet. In this
> view, the event 1000 light years away that you’re seeing happened back
> then, and it’s not "existing" now in any real sense; you’re just getting
> the delayed signal.
>
> ### Tying It All Together
> So, where does this leave us? You’re correct that the finite speed of
> light causes delays in how we perceive distant events, and that doesn’t
> automatically mean everything exists in a block universe. The block
> universe is one way to make sense of relativity’s weirdness about time, but
> it’s not the only way. Your observation highlights a key distinction:
>
> - **Perception**: We see things after they happen because light takes time
> to travel.
> - **Reality**: Whether those events "still exist" or all times coexist is
> a philosophical question, not a proven fact.
>
> Relativity shows us that time is more flexible than our everyday
> experience suggests, but it doesn’t force us to accept the block universe.
> Your point about delayed perception is valid and doesn’t require the idea
> that everything already exists—it’s a solid foundation to explore these
> bigger questions about time. Whether you lean toward the block universe,
> presentism, or something else, your reasoning captures an essential truth
> about how we experience the universe!
> -----------------------
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