[ExI] Von Neumann Probes

[BillK]

On Sun, 25 Jan 2026 at 12:45, John Clark via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
>
> From the Earth a Dyson sphere (or swarm) would look like a point source
of extremely intense infrared radiation caused by waste heat, and if
anything like that existed in the Milky Way we would've noticed it by now,
but we have seen nothing like it. And because of the theoretical
possibility of Von Neumann probes, I wouldn't expect to see just one Dyson
Sphere, I would expect to see either lots and lots of them or none at all.
>
> Also, astronomers have scanned about 100,000 nearby galaxies looking for
aKardashev Type III civilization, one that has Dyson Spheres around every
star in their galaxy, but we have never seen the slightest sign of such a
thing. We might not be able to detect a Type III if the galaxy was very
very distant, but remember the more distant a galaxy we're looking at is,
the closer to the Big Bang it is, and the less time Evolution would have to
produce even primitive life, much less intelligent life capable of building
a Dyson Sphere around every star in a galaxy. And the very early universe
was made up of nothing but hydrogen, helium and a tiny trace of lithium,
and you can't make much with just that. That's why I think that, although
life may be common, we are almost certainly the only intelligent life in
the observable universe.
>
> John K Clark
> _______________________________________________


Gemini makes the point that once a civ develops controlled fusion power,
there will be no requirement to build a Dyson swarm.
Especially when compared to dismantling a planet to get material for the
Dyson swarm.
So you are probably correct to assume that there are no Dyson swarms
anywhere.
Though no Dyson swarms does not necessarily mean no advanced civs anywhere.
BillK

Gemini 3 AI -

Building a Dyson swarm is one of those "theoretically possible but
practically insane" concepts. It doesn't break the laws of physics, but it
certainly tests the limits of our patience and planetary resources.

To answer your question directly: No, it isn't *physically impossible*, but
it requires a level of engineering and resource management that we
currently view as science fiction.
------------------------------
The "Material" Problem

The biggest hurdle isn't the technology—it's the sheer amount of "stuff"
needed. To capture a significant fraction of the Sun’s $3.8 \times 10^{26}$
watts of power, you need a massive surface area.


   -

   *The Mercury Sacrifice:* To build a swarm of collectors, we would likely
   need to dismantle an entire planet. *Mercury* is the prime candidate
   because it’s metal-rich and close to the Sun (lower "shipping" costs).
   -

   *The Logistics:* You’d need self-replicating robots. You send a few to
   Mercury, they mine, build more robots, and eventually start churning out
   solar collectors.


Why a "Swarm" and not a "Sphere"?

Science fiction often depicts a *Dyson Sphere*—a solid shell around a
star. *That
is physically impossible.* A solid shell would have no internal
gravitational pull toward the star, meaning the slightest nudge would send
it crashing into the sun. It would also be under unimaginable structural
tension. A *Swarm* of independent satellites is the only way to go.

------------------------------
Environmental & Engineering Hurdles

Even if you have the material, space is a "hostile work environment" for a
few reasons:

   1.

   *Orbital Mechanics:* You can't just park a billion satellites. They have
   to orbit. If those orbits cross, you risk a "Kessler Syndrome" on a solar
   scale—a chain reaction of collisions that turns your power plant into a
   cloud of shrapnel.
   2.

   *Radiation and Heat:* The collectors would be bombarded by solar wind
   and intense heat, requiring high-end materials that don't degrade over
   centuries.
   3.

   *Light Pressure:* Sunlight itself exerts pressure. For very light
   collectors, the Sun's light might actually push them out of orbit unless
   they are actively steered.


------------------------------
Alternatives to a Full Swarm

If dismantling Mercury sounds like too much work for a Monday, there are
"Dyson-lite" options:
*Alternative* *How it Works* *Pros/Cons*
*Dyson Ring* A single ring of collectors around the star. Much less
material; captures way less energy.
*Dyson Bubble* Collectors are "statites" (stationary satellites) held up by
light pressure. No complex orbits needed; requires incredibly light
materials.
*Stellar Lifting* Removing material directly from the star's surface. Extends
the star's life and gives you raw hydrogen; incredibly difficult.
*Matrioshka Brain* A series of Dyson swarms nested inside each other. Maximum
computing power; essentially a solar-system-sized supercomputer.The
"Reality Check" Alternative

Before we build a swarm, we’ll likely look at *Fusion Power* on Earth. If
we can master the same process the Sun uses ($H + H \rightarrow He + Energy$)
here on the ground, the "need" to capture the Sun's entire output becomes a
luxury rather than a necessity.
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