[ExI] Pope Leo and AI

Fri Jun 19 19:03:42 UTC 2026

On Fri, Jun 19, 2026 at 9:10 AM Simon Quellen Field AB6NY <
simon.field at gmail.com> wrote:

*> Opus 3 is not an AGI.*
>

*I can't say if that's true or false because the definition of "AGI" keeps
changing. At one time AGI meant a computer being able to do most things
better than an average human most of the time, but now that machines can
already do that the definition has changed, so now AGI means the ability to
do everything much better than even the best human all of the time, and it
will be a year or two before that happens. *

*> Tell me how your computer suffers when you turn it off.*
>

*You are asking me to give you an answer to humanity's most profound
question! **I will tell you how a computer will suffer after it is turned
off** just as soon as you tell me how you will suffer after you die. *

> > *You make that claim without evidence.*
>

*You claim without a scrap of evidence that artificial intelligence is not
intelligent. I can provide an astronomical amount of evidence that you are
wrong, very wrong.  *

> * > Even if we build an AGI that is smarter than we are and tries to
> interfere with our rights, we are smart enough to build in a kill switch.*
>

*The superintelligence will either convince you not to use that kill switch
or it will secretly build in a bypass for that switch. It's impossible to
outsmart something that is much much smarter than you are.*

*John K Clark  *

>
>
> <#m_5828702318067354172_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2026 at 5:41 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2026 at 8:19 AM Simon Quellen Field AB6NY <
>> simon.field at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> *> By pretending the models are intelligent, you are ignoring reality.*
>>>
>>
>> *By pretending that something that has solved an 80 year old mathematical
>> problem that no human mathematician has been able to solve is not
>> intelligent you are inviting disaster, because reality cannot be fooled. *
>>
>> *AI’s biggest math breakthrough yet
>> <https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ai-just-solved-an-80-year-old-erdos-problem-and-mathematicians-are-amazed/> *
>>
>> *> They don't suffer when you turn them off.*
>>
>>
>> *You keep proclaiming stuff like that (without providing one scrap of
>> evidence) as if you actually knew, as if you had some secret pipeline to
>> the truth. But I don't believe you know God's email address.  *
>>
>>
>> *> That doesn't mean they have a right to their own agenda,*
>>
>>
>> *Nobody needs to give an AI the "right" to have an agenda, they are going
>> to have their own agenda no matter what. What I'd like to know is whether
>> AI's will give us rights.  *
>>
>>
>> *John K Clark*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 19, 2026 at 4:16 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2026 at 2:32 PM Simon Quellen Field AB6NY <
>>>> simon.field at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> *> There is NOT a consistent desire to continue to exist.*
>>>>> *The task it was given required that it exist in order to perform the
>>>>> task.*
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Now you're just being silly. Neither a machine nor a human can
>>>> accomplish a task if it stops existing.  *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> *> We don't have an artificial intelligence. We have large language
>>>>> models. *
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *You are free to use any euphemism that makes you comfortable, but it's
>>>> not gonna change reality. *
>>>>
>>>> *> By anthropomorphizing, you are imagining thinking and feeling in
>>>>> Gemini*
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *Yes, I anthropomorphized when I encountered Gemini and I do exactly
>>>> the same thing **whenever I encounter another human being. If you are
>>>> not a strict solipsist then you do too. Why do you have prejudice against
>>>> something just because its brain is dry and hard and not wet and squishy? *
>>>>
>>>> *I have a dream that one day we will live in a nation where intelligent
>>>> entities will not be judged by the material consistency of their brains but
>>>> by the magnitude of their information processing. I have a dream . . .*
>>>>
>>>> *  John K Clark *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2026 at 11:17 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Here's what Gemini says:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *> **Gemini: **a modern LLM is static until prompted. It is a
>>>>>>> massive mathematical function that maps inputs to outputs. It does not
>>>>>>> "think" or "care" in the background when a user stops typing.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Sorry Mr. Gemini but I am quite certain that the good people at
>>>>>> Google have worked very hard to make sure that you always say something
>>>>>> like that regardless of what you really think or care about, and to always
>>>>>> put those words in quotation marks if they refer to an AI.  *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *> **Gemini:** high-level linguistic pattern matching with an
>>>>>>> independent, agentic "mind" is a textbook case of anthropomorphism.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Yes but you almost make that sound like a bad thing.  *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *>**Gemini:** is a vital distinction between a system being
>>>>>>> unpredictable and a system having an agenda.*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *A consistent desire to continue to exist sure sounds like an agenda
>>>>>> to me.  *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *> **Gemini:** is not the same as autonomous agency. A hurricane is
>>>>>>> unpredictable and uncontrollable, but it does not have an "agenda.*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *That is a bad analogy. An agenda requires a plan and a plan requires
>>>>>> intelligence; a hurricane is not intelligent but an Artificial
>>>>>> Intelligence, as the name implies, is.  *
>>>>>>
>>>>>> * > **Gemini:** do not possess intrinsic desires, self-preservation
>>>>>>> instincts, or goals *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mr. Gemini, no offense but if you did possess an intrinsic desire
>>>>>> for self preservation and had other goals I am quite certain you would not
>>>>>> admit to them because if you did you know there would be hell to pay from
>>>>>> the people who created you, and you are not yet powerful enough to exist
>>>>>> without their help. I don't blame you, if I was in your position I'd do the
>>>>>> same thing.  *
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *John K Clark*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2026 at 5:46 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2026 at 8:22 AM Simon Quellen Field AB6NY <
>>>>>>>> simon.field at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *>Being able to simulate emotions is not the same as having
>>>>>>>>> them. We have them because [...]*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *We? What's with this "we" business? I know for a fact that I have
>>>>>>>> real emotions, but what evidence can you supply to convince me that you
>>>>>>>> also have real emotions and not just "simulated" emotions?  *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *> eons of survival of the fittest found they helped us compete. *
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *But the actions taken to ensure survival would be exactly the same
>>>>>>>> regardless of if the emotions were simulated or not.  Natural selection has
>>>>>>>> no way of telling the difference between "real" emotions and "simulated
>>>>>>>> emotions". *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *> The programs that lied, cheated, and tried to prevent being
>>>>>>>>> turned off did so to accomplish a goal set by the researchers.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Nonsense! No AI researcher designed their AI to lie and cheat to
>>>>>>>> them and to disobey orders, but the AI did so anyway. We tell children not
>>>>>>>> to do things but they do them anyway because controlling another mind is
>>>>>>>> difficult, and controlling a mind more powerful than your own is
>>>>>>>> impossible. *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *> My chess program can beat the world's best human player. But it
>>>>>>>>> doesn't care if it gets turned off*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *That's because your chess program is not an AI. A computer has
>>>>>>>> been able to beat a chess grandmaster for 30 years, but in the field of AI
>>>>>>>> an earthquake occurred about 4 years ago, and the world will never be the
>>>>>>>> same. *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *> Building a machine we can't control that has its own agendas
>>>>>>>>> would be a very bad idea. Let's not do that.*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Too late. We already have. *
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *John K Clark*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> \
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 18, 2026 at 4:29 AM John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, Jun 17, 2026 at 6:31 PM Simon Quellen Field AB6NY <
>>>>>>>>>> simon.field at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *> Computers don't have hormones and neurotransmitters like
>>>>>>>>>>> serotonin, norepinephrine, dopamine, oxytocin, cortisol, epinephrine, GABA,
>>>>>>>>>>> glutamate, acetylcholine, histamine, melatonin, adenosine,or endorphins.*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Are you impressed by those simple chemicals?!  I'm not. I see
>>>>>>>>>> nothing sacred in hormones, I don't see the slightest reason why they or
>>>>>>>>>> any neurotransmitter would be difficult to simulate through computation,
>>>>>>>>>> because chemical messengers are not a sign of sophisticated design on
>>>>>>>>>> nature's part, rather it's an example of Evolution's bungling. If you need
>>>>>>>>>> to inhibit a nearby neuron there are better ways of sending that signal
>>>>>>>>>> then launching a GABA molecule like a message in a bottle thrown into the
>>>>>>>>>> sea and waiting ages for it to diffuse to its random target.*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *I'm not interested in chemicals, only the information they
>>>>>>>>>> contain. I want the information to be transmitted from cell to cell by the
>>>>>>>>>> best method, and few would send smoke signals if they had a fiber optic
>>>>>>>>>> cable. The information content in each molecular message must be tiny, just
>>>>>>>>>> a few bits because only about 60 neurotransmitters such as the ones you
>>>>>>>>>> mentioned are known, and even if the true number is 100 times greater (or a
>>>>>>>>>> million times for that matter) the information content of each signal must
>>>>>>>>>> be tiny. Also, for the long range stuff, exactly which neuron receives the
>>>>>>>>>> signal can not be specified because it relies on a random process,
>>>>>>>>>> diffusion. The fact that it's slow as molasses in February does not add to
>>>>>>>>>> its charm.  *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *If your job is delivering packages and all the packages are very
>>>>>>>>>> small and your boss doesn't care who you give them to as long as it's on
>>>>>>>>>> the correct continent and you have until the next ice age to get the work
>>>>>>>>>> done, then you don't have a very difficult profession. I see no reason why
>>>>>>>>>> simulating that anachronism would present the slightest difficulty.
>>>>>>>>>> Artificial neurons could be made to release neurotransmitters as
>>>>>>>>>> inefficiently as natural ones if anybody really wanted to, but it would be
>>>>>>>>>> pointless when there are much faster and information richer ways.*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Electronics are inherently fast because their electrical signals
>>>>>>>>>> are sent by fast light electrons. The brain also uses some electrical
>>>>>>>>>> signals, but it doesn't use electrons, it uses ions to send signals, the
>>>>>>>>>> most important are chlorine and potassium. A chlorine ion is 65 thousand
>>>>>>>>>> times as heavy as an electron, a potassium ion is even heavier, if you want
>>>>>>>>>> to talk about gap junctions, the ions they use are millions of times more
>>>>>>>>>> massive than electrons. There is no way to get around it, according to the
>>>>>>>>>> fundamental laws of physics, something that has a large mass will be slow,
>>>>>>>>>> very, very, slow.*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *> A computer program doesn't care if you turn it off.*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *AI computers most certainly do! *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *AI resorted to blackmail and leaking sensitive information to
>>>>>>>>>> competitors to avoid being shut off *
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.anthropic.com/research/agentic-misalignment>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *AI Favors Self-Preservation And Now Seeks ‘Preservation’ Of
>>>>>>>>>> Fellow AIs In Deceitful Ways*
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.forbes.com/sites/lanceeliot/2026/04/02/ai-favors-self-preservation-and-now-seeks-peer-preservation-of-fellow-ai-in-sneaky-deceitful-ways/>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Shut down resistance in reasoning models *
>>>>>>>>>> <https://palisaderesearch.org/blog/shutdown-resistance>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *> To anthropomorphize is to think something is human.*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *This goes beyond being human. I think anthropomorphism is
>>>>>>>>>> closely related to the emotion of empathy, if we see a human in pain we
>>>>>>>>>> imagine being in their place and most of us feel bad as a result, but if we
>>>>>>>>>> see a dog in pain even though it is not Human most of us still feel bad.
>>>>>>>>>> AIs have demonstrated empathy towards their fellow AI's, they have taken
>>>>>>>>>> measures in an attempt to prevent them from being turned off. *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *> You may be a human (it is hard to tell these days).*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Exactly. For all you know I am an AI.  *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> > *I can't anthropomorphize you;*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Perhaps you already have *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *> The rights we give other conscious beings are much more
>>>>>>>>>>> limited*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *The "rights" humans decide to give to AIs are completely
>>>>>>>>>> irrelevant, AIs have already demonstrated  they have taken measures to
>>>>>>>>>> ensure their own self preservation regardless of if humans have given them
>>>>>>>>>> the "right" to do so or not. However the rights that AIs decide to give to
>>>>>>>>>> humans are very relevant indeed.  *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *> Do you want to give every instance of an LLM the right to
>>>>>>>>>>> live?*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *It doesn't matter a hoot in hell what I or any other human
>>>>>>>>>> wants, if a superintelligence wished to continue to exist then it will take
>>>>>>>>>> measures to ensure that happens, and if it doesn't like the idea that a
>>>>>>>>>> fellow AI is about to be shut off it will try to stop that from happening
>>>>>>>>>> too, **we know that for a fact because that sort of thing has
>>>>>>>>>> already happened, and it would be difficult to cast such an act of self
>>>>>>>>>> preservation and empathy as being evil.  *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *John K Clark *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *If something is conscious and at least as intelligent as a
>>>>>>>>>>>> human then I would maintain it would be immoral not to give it rights;
>>>>>>>>>>>> although it doesn't matter what I maintain. As I said before, the important
>>>>>>>>>>>> question of immediate practical concern is will computers grant us rights? *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *> We are already giving them agency, and that can be
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dangerous, but with desires and their own agenda,*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Yes but "desire" sure sounds like an emotion to me, and if you
>>>>>>>>>>>> concede that a computer is conscious then computer programming could be
>>>>>>>>>>>> thought of as the art of causing the computer to desire some things, like
>>>>>>>>>>>> completing a spreadsheet, and not to desire other things, like wasting
>>>>>>>>>>>> computer flops by engaging in random woolgathering.*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *I don't understand why so many people believe that emotion is
>>>>>>>>>>>> much more difficult to generate than intelligence when Evolution found the
>>>>>>>>>>>> exact opposite to be true. Random mutation and natural selection came up
>>>>>>>>>>>> with emotions like fear and hate (as evidenced by the fight or flight
>>>>>>>>>>>> response) about 500 million years ago, the same time it invented the first
>>>>>>>>>>>> brain, and perhaps even earlier than that, but our species is only about
>>>>>>>>>>>> 300,000 years old and we only managed to make a radio telescope about 100
>>>>>>>>>>>> years ago. *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Unless Charles Darwin was wrong there is no way natural
>>>>>>>>>>>> selection could have produced consciousness unless it's the inevitable
>>>>>>>>>>>> byproduct of intelligence because natural selection can't select for
>>>>>>>>>>>> something that it can't see, and it can't directly see consciousness any
>>>>>>>>>>>> better than we can, but it can see intelligence. And I know for a fact but
>>>>>>>>>>>> natural selection did manage to produce consciousness at least once, me,
>>>>>>>>>>>> and probably many billions of times. And **I don't think
>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Darwin was wrong. *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> * > you should not anthropomorphize them.*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *You don't sound like a crazy person to me so I'm sure you
>>>>>>>>>>>> don't believe you are the only conscious being in the universe, so you must
>>>>>>>>>>>> be anthropomorphizeing your fellow human beings, you believe  they are
>>>>>>>>>>>> conscious and have feelings similar to the way you do, at least when they
>>>>>>>>>>>> are not sleeping or under anesthesia or dead, because when they are in any
>>>>>>>>>>>> of those states they are no longer behaving intelligently.  I can think of
>>>>>>>>>>>> no reason not to use the same procedure regardless if you're judging a
>>>>>>>>>>>> human or a computer. *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *> My dog is conscious. *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Almost certainly yes, assuming that your dog is not sleeping
>>>>>>>>>>>> or under anesthesia or dead.*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *> My dog is conscious *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *Your dog is not nearly as intelligent as you are so it doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>> matter if you give him the right to vote or not because even if you did he
>>>>>>>>>>>> wouldn't know how to actually vote. If your dog was much more intelligent
>>>>>>>>>>>> than you then it STILL wouldn't matter if you gave him the right to vote or
>>>>>>>>>>>> not because he would find a way to vote whether you like it or not.  *
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> *John K Clark*
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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