[ExI] ai is the easy road

[Keith Henson]

TOn Wed, Oct 14, 2026 at 5:19 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> On 13/10/2026 22:41, extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 13, 2026 at 5:10 AM Ben Zaiboc via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> >
> >     Keith Henson wrote:
> >
> >     > I am sorry to say, but slaughtering each other is functional and
> rational from the viewpoint of genes ...
> >     Yes, of course, but do we want to remain at the level of beasts that
> serve their genes?
> >
> >
> > That is very tricky. Traits like starting on the path to war when there
> is a perceived resource crisis, or capture-bonding is wired into our brains
> due to evolutionary selection. Removing these traits, even identifying
> where they are in the genome. would be a herculean task. And who knows what
> other psychological traits they contribute to.
> >
> > Better, I think to keep them turned off by environmental cues. Between
> falling birth rates and rising wealth, keeping the psychological traits
> that lead to wars and related social disruption turned off looks like an
> easier way than changing human nature. At least given current technology.
> Do you mean that it's a tricky question? Because I don't think it is. I
> think the answer must be a definite 'No'.
>

It is a difficult problem, perhaps I used the wrong word.

How do we rise above that level, and take control of our selves, that is
> certainly a tricky issue.
>

Do we even want to do that? I don't know. For example, nothing switches a
human group into "war mode" faster than being attacked. Do we want to edit
out this part of our psychology? If it is connected to the slower
"perception of bleak future" can we sort them out?

I'm not suggesting any specific routes, I'm just saying that we do need to
> transcend these tendencies, one way or another, and pointing out that we've
> already started to do so. This suggests that there are ways of achieving it
> that don't have to involve genetic engineering or mental editing. Control
> of our environment is one possibility (seems a poor solution, though,
> except maybe as a stopgap), and individual education might be another
> (people often do start to behave differently when they learn the basis of
> their behaviours).
>

I don't know. From what I have observed over a long time, I suspect there
is a strong evolved mental bias against having a lot of insight. Read the
last line of the Genetic Selection for War paper.

You also have a good point, saying "who knows what other psychological
> traits they contribute to". We need to find out. It may be that some of
> these things can only be tackled after uploading.
>
> If we want to. As an example, consider capture-bonding. The full mode is
rarely turned on. I can think of fewer than half a dozen cases. But how
much does this trait contribute to human personalities? Parcial turn on
seems to be a factor in BDSM. Not into that, but I know some who were.
Would you remove this souce of pleasure from these people? I think it also
lies behind fraternity hazing and military basic training. Do we want to
make people unresponsive to such things?

> >
> >     To me, at least, being human implies transcending the biological
> imperatives that have dominated the last couple of billion years. We have
> been doing that for a while. We have decoupled, to a degree, sex from
> reproduction. We are starting to override or take control of, some
> biological processes. We are on the verge of moving medicine from 'let
> nature fix the problem' to 'we will fix it'. This will continue, and
> accelerate. We may be in the last period where biology controls our
> destinies, and entering the period where the viewpoint of genes becomes
> irrelevant to what we are and what we do.
> >
> >     For a long time, we have been creatures 'suspended between beasts
> and angels'. We are, I think, beginning to enter an age where we can
> progress from that state to becoming fully 'angels', and leave the 'beast'
> behind. There's still quite some way to go, of course, but I do think that
> we are now at the earliest stages of being able to make the transition, of
> being able to cast off the legacy of biology. I'll say again what I've said
> before: Biology is like an abusive parent, we wouldn't be here without it,
> but we need to get the hell away from it as soon as possible, if we are to
> survive and thrive.
> >
> >     Evolutionary biology is a useful tool for understanding how we came
> to be what we are. It should not determine what we are to be.
> >
> >
> > I make the case that we need to understand our natures as evolved
> primates who have been subjected for a number of traits. It is a really
> hard meme to spread. Virtually no humans acknowledge that they have
> internal drives of which they are not aware.
>
>
> Not so sure of this. There are probably more than you think.
>

You could be right, but I don't see much.

>  Even on this group, and me harping on it for decades, few have much
> insight to their internals state or what physical and social forces drive
> it.
>
> I think I'm in agreement with spike on this: Most people in this group
> probably do accept your argument, and agree with it. After all, if it was
> controversial, do you really think we wouldn't be arguing about it? Silence
> on a matter is probably a good thing, an indicator of "yes, of course" (as
> opposed to silence after a lot of argument, which probably means "Whatever.
> I'm sick and tired of arguing with you now").
>

There is a difference between agreeing with a thesis and incorporating it
into your mental model of the world.
Keith

Ben
> "The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who
> watch them without doing anything." - Pablo Casals, via Albert Einstein
>
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