[Paleopsych] Alice Andrews: Playing with Myself: Questions for myself about my novel, Trine Erotic
Alice Andrews
aandrews at hvc.rr.com
Thu Jun 16 12:06:48 UTC 2005
First of all, I want to thank you,
Frank, for appreciating my novel and
for writing and posting this...I feel
a lot of support from this list, which
isn't nothing! Sure it's electronic,
but it's still real and I feel real
appreciation.
So, just to correct a few things:
Of course I know about multi-level
selectionism--how could I not! And I
think it's good stuff and it makes
sense to me! I'm a supporter.
In fact, I'll be meeting with David
Wilson in about 3 weeks (with others)
to discuss the possibility of a new
Evolutionary Studies program here at
New Paltz. Very exciting!
You wrote:
What's also missing from the novel, as
it is from evolutionary psychology
generally, is the desire for a
long-term monogamous commitment, which
is
a quite different kind of love.
Hmm. Let me say this: The novel deals
with some love themes: passionate love
v companionate love (what i call 'hot'
love and 'warm' love) and selfless
love and selfish love, and also
romantic soul-mate love, short-term
mating and long-term mating, among
other love themes.
It's true that many of the female
characters "desire" romantic love and
don't care how they get it or for how
long, whether it is for 10 years or a
year. I also think some (if not all)
the female characters DO desire
monogamous enduring relationships...As
well, there is plenty of talk about
"long-term, monogamous commitment" I
think.
But anyway, what drives any story is a
quest/motivation/striving... The
female characters DO want love.
In fact, if you think about it, 3 out
of the 4 female characters DO end up
in long-term, monogamous, committed
relationships...
Also, what do you mean when you say
the
"desire for a long-term monogamous
commitment" is missing from EP? I'm
not sure I understand. Do you mean
that evolutionary psychologists talk
too much about short-term mating? I
think that's the popular culture's
EP....
Just as an interesting example: David
Buss, in his EP textbook, devotes 58
pages to male and female long-term
mating and only 23 pages to male and
female short-term mating.
Well, again, thank you for supporting
me, Frank....
All best!!!!
Alice
----- Original Message -----
From: Premise Checker
To: paleopsych at paleopsych.org
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 3:31
PM
Subject: [Paleopsych] Alice Andrews:
Playing with Myself: Questions for
myself about my novel, Trine Erotic
Our list member has written the very
first novel written around
evolutionary psychology ideas, and I
can recommend it highly. It is
composed of stories with stories,
and you're never quite sure what the
reality is. It's like postmodernism
in this way. And you wonder to what
extent the novel is autobiographical
or about the person the author wished
she were or just made up of
creatures that exemplify what
evolutionary
psychology demands that they do.
But it's quite clear that the female
protagonists very much want men they
can bat ideas around with, though
there's no place for the love of ideas
for their own sake in evolutionary
psychology. The narrators seem to know
this, though they want to transcend
these limits. Gordon Tullock, an
economics professor I had, thought
that altruism in humans was the result
of an evolutionary defect: we had
not been humans long enough for
altruism
to have been weeded out! I'm sure
he'd worry that Alice is defective,
being much too in love with ideas.
One answer, that she apparently
doesn't know about, is that evolution
takes place on many levels, not just
at the level of the gene. This makes
group selection possible and makes
room for altruism. The book here is
Elliott Sober and David Sloan
Wilson, _Unto Others_, which is slowly
getting accepted in the biology
community. (Paradigm shifts do take
time,
you know.)
Another answer is that, however much
the overall selfish gene theory is
true, our desires are indirect
mechanisms to promote the overall goal
and
that there are many of these
desires. Steven Reiss came up with 16
basic
desires that are relatively
independent of one another. Desiring
to raise
(one's own) children is largely
independent of romance (which includes
the neighboring desires of wanting
coitus and of wanting aesthetic
experiences. Why the latter, I'm not
sure, but factor analysis puts the
three of them together.). And both
are independent of curiosity, which is
at the top of my list and my wife's
(I am sure) and at least near the top
of Alice's.
What's also missing from the novel,
as it is from evolutionary psychology
generally, is the desire for a
long-term monogamous commitment, which
is
a quite different kind of love.
Note to myself: you've got to get
around to buying and reading C.S.
Lewis'
_The Four Loves_. You shouldn't let
your atheism keep you from the book.
After all, Moses and Solomon (less
so Jesus) were proto-sociobiologists.
---------------------
Alice Andrews: Playing with Myself:
Questions for myself about my novel,
Trine
Erotic
http://www.entelechyjournal.com/playing_with_myself.htm
[This is the first novel written
from the perspective of evolutionary
psychology. I am finishing it up now
and am enjoying its playfulness
exceedingly.]
Q What are some of the major
questions you try to deal with in
Trine
Erotic?
A Well, there are quite a few:
Is there free will? What is the will?
What is and is there a single Ia
self? Are we determined by our genes?
Can we (and how and what affect
does it have to) go against our
nature? What is the unconscious?
Is it what evolutionary psychologists
refer to as our universal human
nature? Or is it something else? And
how does it work? And is there a
universal human nature? How does
culture influence us? What is
art? What is love? And is there
something beyond our
evolutionary, deep reflexessome kind
of global
brain, as Howard Bloom suggests,
that is motivating us?
Q You dedicate the book to every
womans desire and the art within her
and to alpha males everywhere.
Does that mean its not for other
malessay, Beta?
A No, no. Its sort of
tongue-in-cheeky. Im playing with the
evolutionary theory that art is
displayed as a mating signal/strategy.
So Im saying: Here is this piece
of artand, naturally, I would want to
signal the highest type of man.
Of course, alpha male is subjective
when it comes to humansfor apes
it may be just a factor of strength or
posing. For me, an alpha male
doesnt always look like an alpha; a
man
could be an alpha and work in a
factory but be an original thinker and
want to lead or organize people.
(David M. Busss work explains this,
actually.) But anyway, its not
just for alpha males. Its for all
males. But its particularly for
men who are creative and deep and
interested in figuring out the
world . . . understanding human
nature,
and more. And it's for females
too!
Q Why did you write the book?
A Well, for one, I was compelled
to write. And there are a lot of
other reasons as well. But, I
have to say that I found the fiction I
was reading leaving me cold. I
just found myself not getting turned
on
by all that good literature. I
wanted to be turned on. I saw the
appeal; saw the code of it. You
know, theres something here in this
story but Im not going to let on
to what it is because youre supposed
to get it because were so smart,
and good fiction shows and doesnt
tell. And Im not going to even
attempt to affect you in any way
because that would be pompous
and sentimental and ultimately
ineffective. And were so
sophisticated and subtle. I guess
these are
some of the rules of fiction.
Like how you shouldnt write out ideas.
And its related to the
seduction/anti-seduction stuff I write
about in
the book. Most modern fiction is
quite seductive, in the
Baudrillardian sense, by trying
or appearing not to seduce. I think my
style is anti-anti-seductionor
[2]meta-seduction. I am possibly
"seducing" by going against a
seductive "hiding" strategy. For
example, I can choose to wear
revealing clothing (which isnt
seductive) or less revealing
clothing, which concealswhich is
seductive. But I can wear the
revealing clothes as a reaction to the
seductive strategy, which says,
Im not trying to seduce with the
not-trying-to-seduce clothes.
And this is seductive in its own waya
hiding from hiding. Of course,
the revealing clothing looks the
sameits just a matter of
intention. And only a few will be able
to
read the code or signal. I
realize this is made confusing because
I am
using Baudrillards sense of the
word. In fact, what you have are three
things working: seduction (in
its denotation), anti-seduction, and
anti-anti-seduction or
meta-seduction. Dont tell me Im
confusing
YOU!??
Im not terribly affected by most
fiction (though I know Im in the
minority). And Im not proud of
that fact. Its just the way I am. Im
not very subtle. I like to read
nonfiction. Otherwise I feel like Im
wasting my time. Id rather be
doing something or writing or learning
something. Unfortunately I dont
have that feeling (that Im learning
something, etc.) when I read
most fiction. And perhaps that is a
fault
of mine. Perhaps Im just not
refined enough or my personality
doesnt
allow me to slow down. Maybe it
has something to do with the fact that
Im right-brain dominant. I
really see a difference though,
between
people who love fiction and me.
And, thankfully, Ive stopped worrying
that theres something wrong with
me in this.
For the record, I dont place a
value on one or the otherseductive
fiction (which is what is
accepted and favored) versus
meta-seductive
fiction (fiction which tells you
what its doing, openly wants to
affect, deals with ideas, etc.).
But to answer your question: I
wrote a book that I was wanting to
read.
Q Is there any fiction you do
like?
A Oh, of course. I loved Smillas
Sense of Snow, liked Jeanette
Wintersons Sexing the Cherry,
D.H. Lawrenceliked Kundera when I was
younger Dostoevsky, John Berger,
Hermann Hesse, and [3]there are
others
Q You mention wanting to affect
the reader. What kind of affect are
you hoping for?
A Any, I suppose. Nietzsche
wrote that the effect of works of art
is
to excite the state that creates
art . . . he says its intoxication .
. . First and foremost, I want
the reader to get some pleasure from
it. After that, its mostly a
working out of some of the questions
which seem to haunt us, stuff
about love. And I suppose I want it to
be a part of the readers working
it out, like a friend. There is also
the sort of feministy thing
about desire and art in women. I
suppose I
would like TE to inspire women
to let loose their desire and art
more.
In Sirens Song, the nameless
protagonist says her father told her
that
the point about art was to share
itabout an audience. Which reminds me
of a scene in Bride of the Wind,
a film about Alma Mahler I just saw
on video. Alma says to her
husband Mahler, I wish youd conduct
one of
my songs. And he says, One of
your songs? . . . Perhaps one day in
rehearsal. And she says,
Rehearsal? But then there wouldnt be
an
audience. And he says, Ill be
there. Arent I enough? And Im
interested
in this. Because despite the
womens rights movement and so much
liberation and so many women
artists, I still think there is this
thing within us (women) . . . a
resistance . . . and I question its
etiology. If such a resistance
existsor rather, a relative lack of
desire to broadcast compared to
menis it innate? That is, is it
related to biology, to the
evolutionary theory that men try to
broadcast to as many women as
possible, since it is in their genetic
interest to do so? (Or since
they are the product of millions of
years
of evolution which ensured such
a tendency persisted?) Or is it
cultural? Or some admixture?
Again, I question my premise as well.
Im
interested in trying to uncover
whether or not such a tendency exists.
I certainly have felt my
relative lack of desire to broadcast.
But of
course, that could have
everything to do with other things:
personality, conditioning, stage
of life, etc.
About my Sirens Song character:
her feeling had always been that it
was something that had to do
with her (whatever her art was, be it
painting or writing); she didnt
have an impulse to broadcast it. And
so, there is this question about
what art is, and its purpose and
function. And, in some sense,
the book is my grappling with deciding
to share whatever it is in meand
that in my sharing of it, there is
meaning. There is a dialectics
of desire, as Barthes saysand I quote
him at the beginning of Sirens
Song. For me, I couldnt and wouldnt
want to put the book out there
if I didnt think it would serve some
kind of purpose. And of course,
art is purposeful. It is motivated by
all sorts of deep, powerful
urges. The artist experiences it as an
outpouring of some kind of force
that has to be expelled, a feeling of
compulsion. And then theres that
choice an artist makesdo you go mad
or stay somewhat functionally
neurotic, or do you release and
create?
(The existential problem of
whether or not it is a choice, I cant
answer. My answer probably
changes with my mood.)
But also, there is the EP theory
of art as signal. And in some ways
that is also about survival. So
I see art as a saviorfor the artist
but also for the audience, of
course. Once I decided that Trine
Erotic
was for an audience, it took on
a whole new light. It was outward
directed and relating, and it
was pleasurable in a way that before
it
hadnt been (that is, writing for
myself). So much goes unsaid in the
culture. Most of us (except
perhaps for some hard-core feminists)
think women are free to do their
thing. We have this sense,
historically and culturally,
that women are now free. Yet I dont
really think so. I think its
good to show a female character who
feels
restricted with respect to
desire and the art within her. I think
some
women will identify and it may
feel liberating, or help create
movement. And of course, thats
where the fiction reactionaries come
in. I shouldnt be so pompous as
to think that something I have created
could have some kind of affect.
But to me, perhaps because Im a woman
and mother (it may be nature or
nurture or both), I dont see why you
would put something out there if
it wasnt for some good, for some use.
And that is also tied in to the
notion that it could be my compulsion
and selfishness (much like an
overbearing parent) that made me
continue to write new stories,
though it felt like love, but that it
is finally the selfless love for
the reader that allows me to stop
creatingto allow the reader to
create something of their own from the
book or envision the next story
or storiesto be individuated and truly
the artist, to be free.
Q This seems related to the
whole reader response issue in the
novel .
. .
A Yes. I say the book is alive.
And in a way, the book is like a
lover. It is also a meme (or
memeplexwhat I call memesome). I, the
author, am egoless; the words
are not minetheyre this meme. And the
words belong to the reader, and
the reader is the artistcreating
meaning and art through the
reading.
Q You say feministy, but
sometimes you sound downright
backwards about
women in the novel. The scene
with the woman walking behind Caleb,
for
example, youre not critical of
ityou seem to romanticize it.
A Well, first of all, the most
interesting thing about people is
their
contradictions. I think thats
why Ed and Calebs characters are
interesting. I am putting those
questions out there, because we have
all felt them. I mean, I say
something like, it was a walking dance
which fulfilled something primal
for them and though they both
understood the sexist
implications, they didnt care . . .
Its dealing
with the different layers again
accepting and integrating them not
trying to ban certain impulses
or desires because we are told to. Is
it bad or is she inferior
because she is turned on by walking
behind
him? I dont know. I dont think
so. If she feels free as a woman, then
I dont see the problem. But I
see the potential danger in this
positionjust as there is
potential danger in an EP/essentialist
position. But Steven Pinker I
think does the best job of explaining
why it doesnt have to be
dangerousand in fact, in the long run
might
do more good than harm.
Q You play with the question of
patterns . . . Why?
A Well, for one, Gurdjieff, the
basis for Rajingiev and Guerttiev, was
interested in habits. And I
guess I am too. The book is about
these
women who have recurring
patterns in their relationships. And,
of
course, people do throughout
their lifespanoften debilitatingly so.
And I suppose a big question in
standard social clinical psychology is
how do you break these patterns?
But Im not only interested in
patterns as related to
psychological
processes/neuroses/habits, but
also to questions of time, e.g.
eternal recurrence. Would it all
really be the same if we played
it all back from the beginning? And
can we change? And do we really
have free will? And can we actually
determine reality or has
everything been set and were just
living it
out? The new physics gets at a
lot of these issues . . .
Q Why didnt you use Gurdjieff s
name in the book? You use the real
names of others
A I didnt because many of the
philosophical/spiritual ideas I wrote
about in Sirens Song and some in
Baby Theory are really not the ideas
of Gurdjieff. Rajingiev and
Guerttiev are not pseudonyms for
Gurdjieff; they are names for a
fictional sage. Yet Gurdjieffians will
certainly recognize some of
Gurdjieff in them, thats true.
Q What does the title mean,
Trine Erotic?
A Well, trine means three . . .
and three is important throughout the
book. Erotic refers to Eros . .
. love (though also it has a sexual
component). But the first
meaning of the title is three love
stories:
three loves. (Trine Erotic= Love
Stories, Sirens Song, and Baby Theory
. . . Also Conscious Shock =
soft kill, Red Love, and Sirens Song.)
In
addition, there are couplet
stories that make a final third story:
Conscious Shock and Third Force
make Trine Erotic; soft kill and Red
Love make Love Stories; Love
Stories and Sirens Song make Conscious
Shock . . .)
And there is a feeling that
Third Force isnt over and that Trine
Erotic itself is part of
something . . .
Three-love is also for a sort of
triune theory of love I have in the
book: evolution, experience,
culture. The notion that our problems
stem from the conflict between
our different layers. So, for example,
if I were a man, I might feel an
attraction for women who are heavier
or who have a particular
hip-to-waist ratio than what the
culture
tells me is attractive. This
conflict of impulses and desires tends
to
clog feelings, or at least makes
people feel disjointed. It is hard to
put it all together. Its hard to
know what it is the I really desires;
what is more true for the self?
Three is everywhere in TE. Its
also a Fibonacci number, and Id say
just about every number in the
book is a Fibonacci number. And trine
is also an astrological concept,
relating to the relationship of
planets.
Q Whats a Fibonacci number?
A Fibonacci was an Italian
mathematician who discovered an
interesting
series of numbers, which are now
called Fibonacci numbers. It begins
with 1. You then add one to that
to get 2. You then add those two
numbers together to get 3. Then
2+3=5; 3+5=8; 5+8=13; 8+13=21 . . .
and so on . . . Whats
interesting about these numbers is
that the
ratio between any of the pairs
of numbers is approximately the golden
ratio or the golden number,
which is around 1.618. And whats
interesting about the golden
number is that artists throughout
history
have used it in their art. (The
golden mean, the golden section, or
golden ratio is most beautiful
to our eyes.) In addition, what is
interesting about the actual
numbers themselves in the series is
that
they can be found in naturein
particular in the spirals of things.
So,
if you count the spirals in a
pine cone or the seeds in a sunflower,
or the spirals of a shell, you
will find you get a Fibonacci number.
.
. . 13 rows of spirals, or 21,
like that. As well, the human face
shows a lot of correspondence to
Fibonacci numbers and the golden
ratio. . . . And this is
interesting because there is a lot of
work
being done in EP and other
fields to suggest that there is a
correlation between symmetry and
what is thought of as beautiful, with
developmental health and
stability, perhaps, even fertility and
fecundity. And perhaps, somehow,
there is a relationship between the
mathematics of outward beauty
and inner.
Q Why use Fibonacci numbers?
A I think theres a magical
quality to the numbers, no question.
They
seem most natural. Its like
choosing between painting your wall a
flat
yellow or painting it yellow
with a mixture of white, with a subtle
Lazure technique, to create a
feeling of softness and naturalness,
what youd find in nature. In
addition, mathematics is important
throughout much of the book. I
talk about there being a math to
everything; about the algorithms
of our adapted mind; write about how
the nameless protagonist adds
everything up: Calebs lies, his
Heliosen
ways, his amorality . . .
Q In the book, you sometimes
refer to TE as metafiction. Why?
A Oh, because its about
fictionits a story about a story about
a
story. And because its concerned
with ideas about fiction and writing.
Also, because I go outside of
the fiction and interject as the
author
about the work. Its meta in a
lot of ways. Im interested in
fictionthe
craft of writing. I see TE as a
triptych. Each section, each story has
a different style. Some stories
are crafted more than others, but so
far, readers have told me they
dont see a difference. To me theres a
huge difference, as far as craft
and complexity between some of the
stories . . .
Q Which ones?
A I dont want to say. I want to
get virgin feedback still . . .
I do want to say this: I dont
think of myself as a writerI think of
myself more as a synthesizera
synthesizer of memes. If my writing
were
a singing voice it would be
closer to Leonard Cohens than
Pavarottisor
Joan Osbornes than Kathleen
Battles. The tradition in fiction is,
of
course, pre-film, and has mostly
been concerned with painting mental
pictures for readers. But Im
more interested in representing and
transmitting ideas than I am
pictures. My emphasis is on conveying
meaning up frontthats where I
put my energy. I realize meaning is
also
conveyed subtly, but its just
not enough for me. I have more I want
to
convey. And, of course, I also
do it in the traditional wayI dont
think it would be a novel
otherwise. Also, thats not to say Im
not
interested in language. I am
very much. And I have a pretty good
ear,
so I care very much about the
sounds. Sometimes I would spend half
an
hour on one sentence. For
example, every sentence fragment is
there
for a reason. I could have
chosen instead a semi-colon or a
connecting
word or an em-dash, etc., but
for me it was a question of sound and
meaning and even a visual
impression. And of course, sometimes,
my
first writing would be just
right and I could leave it alone. That
was
always nice.
_______________________
[4]Alice Andrews has taught both
writing and psychology (and sometimes
both at the same time) with an
evolutionary lens for over a decade.
Currently she's teaching "Social
Psychology " and "Personality and
Psychotherapy" at the [5]State
University of New York at New Paltz.
Alice is also an editor and
writer (books and magazines), and was
the
associate editor of
[6]Chronogram from 2000-2002. She is
the author of
[7]Trine Erotic, a novel which
explores evolutionary psychology.
References
1.
http://www.entelechyjournal.com/
2.
http://www.entelechyjournal.com/meta-seductionfiction.htm
3.
http://www.entelechyjournal.com/books.htm
4.
http://www.entelechyjournal.com/andrews
5. http://www.newpaltz.edu/
6. http://www.chronogram.com/
7.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1587761211/qid=1029245378/sr=11-1/ref=sr_11_1/trineerotic-20%22%3ETrine%20Erotic%3C/A%3E/102-5304949-9560913
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