[Paleopsych] threat and signals of commitment

[Alice Andrews]

Gerry,

It appears from my search (though I could be wrong) that Michael is the author of the first paragraph and you are the author of the second paragraph.

As for enlightening you about what Todd has to say, I'd rather leave that up to him. Though I am confused as to what you are not seeing here. It is a social psychological phenomenon which evolutionary theory helps to explain a bit better. One of the problems may be linguistic.When I wrote earlier that I thought your question to Michael's point might be found in evolutionary theories of commitment, I never invoked terms such as 'moderate'. I was merely answering why I thought some people might "reject people who cannot plop into either the liberal camp or the conservative camp." Moderates could be included in this group, perhaps, but they could also not be included in this group. I was referring to the class of people who were 'beyond the liberal/conservative dichotomy'. And, in fact, I had in mind people who transcend and defy labels...who are sometimes conservative, sometimes liberal, sometimes socialist, sometimes moderate, etc., depending on specifics/contexts, etc. I think people who are admixtures of political ideologies do tend to be viewed as threatening, as per Michael's and Todd's and my points. But okay...a moderate could also be viewed as 'a problem' for those who tend to be more black-and white in their thinking and more politically polarized, because in some ways it signals a lack of major commitment and passion and conviction of principle...(perhaps). I could get into it more, but this isn't a big interest of mine, so I think I'll leave it at that.
Cheers,
Alice
ps  These are just views of how others might view things and do not reflect how I personally view things.



  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: G. Reinhart-Waller 
  To: Alice Andrews 
  Cc: The new improved paleopsych list 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 3:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [Paleopsych] threat and signals of commitment


  Alice,

  >> Someone beyond the liberal/conservative
  dichotomy may be rejected by both sides as a nuisance,
  a threat to shared assumptions that define a group
  against another.

  This is absolutely amazing!  Why would any audience 
  reject someone who cannot plop into either the liberal 
  or conservative camp?  Please explain the threat you 
  feel is apparent.  This I need to hear!

  Since Todd included this in his email (below) I assumed you were author of the first paragraph, especially since you were also posted on this.  If you weren't the speaker, any idea who was?
  And....if you clearly understand what Todd has to say, then could you kindly enlighten me why he mentions "moderates" and their refusal to commit?

  Regards,
  Gerry





  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Alice Andrews 
  To: G. Reinhart-Waller 
  Cc: The new improved paleopsych list 
  Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:41 PM
  Subject: Re: [Paleopsych] threat and signals of commitment



  Hi. I have no idea what this means:

  I still do not understand Alice's call for all to select either a liberal or conservative focus. 

  I have never and would never call for such a thing. It's ludicrous.

  I generally don't use these words on this list:  'liberal' etc, and rarely get political here. In fact, I'm not sure if i have ever used these terms on Paleo, though maybe. Perhaps you are confusing me with someone else? 
  My only contribution to this discussion was to mention that Randy Nesse's book seemed an appropriate book for understanding why some people fear people who sit on fence, etc. I think Todd's comments re all this, btw, were right on.


  -Alice
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: G. Reinhart-Waller 
    To: Thrst4knw at aol.com ; andrewsa at newpaltz.edu ; paleopsych at paleopsych.org 
    Cc: ToddStark at aol.com ; waluk at earthlink.net 
    Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:28 PM
    Subject: Re: [Paleopsych] threat and signals of commitment



    Gerry, of the Alice & Gerry team, speaks.

    I still do not understand Alice's call for all to select either a liberal or conservative focus.  The last time I checked was pre 2004 election and from what the officers at my polling place told me,  I continued having the option to sign my voting preference as Independent.  It's possible that in less than 3 or so months, policies have changed but I would find this fairly unusual since I've heard nothing nor have I been notified by mail.  

    My reason for signing up as an Independent is because I saw very little difference in the platforms of Kerry vs. Bush, although I cast my ballot, as always, for the Democrats.  By demanding that everyone takes an either, or position is a sure fire way of again CRACKING our nation into two warring factions.

    Commitment to marriage, especially when children are involved, is different from commitment to a particular political party.  

    Gerry Reinhart-Waller

    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Thrst4knw at aol.com 
    To: andrewsa at newpaltz.edu ; waluk at earthlink.net ; paleopsych at paleopsych.org 
    Cc: ToddStark at aol.com 
    Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:48 AM
    Subject: Re: [Paleopsych] threat and signals of commitment


    Some thoughts about Alice and Gerry's email.

    I'm in agreement with Alice's thought, though I think the situation is greatly exacerbated by fear.  Threat shuts down higher planning functions and the facilties that make measured evaluation possible, and leans us toward more hard-wired action schema.  The need for action draws on our capacity to find salient patterns in massive amounts of noise very rapidly.  Most of us have a deep revulsion to behavior in people around us who seem to be vacilating or entering reflective thought when action seems to be called for.  We recognize that we can respond to threat with action or succomb.  Under conditions of fear, it is very difficult to persuade anyone that what is needed is calm reflection.  We pick up mostly on signals that show people are willing to commit to decisive action.  Witness the sudden popularity of firemen and policemen following 9/11.  

    The whole point of much political propaganda is to create this sense of threat so that people will pull toward these quick impressions, with the assumption that they are then more easily persuaded because this simplifies the decision process.  If you instill fear, some people will become paralyzed, but many will fall back on instinctive moral realism and their decisions become much more predictable.  This greatly facilitates group coordination.  It happens naturally, but obviously can be exploited readily.  

    Under these conditions, "moderates" are viewed with particularly deep suspicion by everyone else, because they don't seem to be willing or able to commit to action when needed.  Our idealized belief that wisdom lies somewhere in measured reflection and balancing different viewpoints quickly dissolves under conditions of perceived threat.  

    We recognize the need for commitment to action (or signals of the capacity for commitment) in each other.  This is often exploited in politics by confusing the capacity for commitment with commitment to particular causes.  

    Does that make sense?  It seems to me to explain a lot of our social behavior.  

    kind regards,

    Todd

    In a message dated 2/23/2005 8:59:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, andrewsa at newpaltz.edu writes:
      ----- Original Message ----- 
      From: G. Reinhart-Waller 
      To: The new improved paleopsych list 
      Sent: Monday, February 21, 2005 9:55 PM
      Subject: Re: [Paleopsych] Re: paleopsych Digest, Vol 9, Issue 20


      >> Someone beyond the liberal/conservative
      dichotomy may be rejected by both sides as a nuisance,
      a threat to shared assumptions that define a group
      against another.

      This is absolutely amazing!  Why would any audience 
      reject someone who cannot plop into either the liberal 
      or conservative camp?  Please explain the threat you 
      feel is apparent.  This I need to hear!

      Gerry
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