[extropy-chat] The Iliad (was: Secular Worship)

[Zero Powers]

Fascinating.  Those are quite similar to thoughts I've been having as
I make my way (all too slowly) through the book.

Zero


On Sat, 6 Nov 2004 07:17:30 +0100, Amara Graps <amara.graps at gmail.com> wrote:
> Zero:
> I think that the The Iliad is a good extropian book too.
> I don't know how to access the older database  to give
> you a link, so I'll repost my old message here.
> Amara
> 
> -------------November 21, 2001-----------------------------------
> 
> To: extropians at extropy.org
> From: Amara Graps <amara at amara.com>
> Subject: Homerian epics (was: French culture and extropianism)
> 
> Daniel:
> 
> Thank you very much for your feedback regarding my question about
> Jacqueline De Romilly and Jean-Pierre Vernant.
> 
> Regarding your words about Odysseus:
> 
> From: "Technotranscendence" <neptune at mars.superlink.net>, Thu, 15 Nov 2001:
> >For instance, with Odysseus, it may be true that he is different
> >from many other Greek heroes, BUT he is there nonetheless and in one
> >of their most celebrated and influential poems.  Therefore, I don't
> >see him as less examplary.  I see him, in fact, as a sort of break
> >with earlier heroes.  The Greeks were still mired in the old, too,
> >but they also had this new type of hero -- a hero of the mind.
> >(Notably, Odysseus' strong suit -- in terms of character; it's
> >obvious he was no whimp and also had some gods on his side -- is his
> >>ability to think through just any situation.)  So, I don't dismiss
> >him from the pantheon of Greek heroes, though he's very different
> >from most of the rest.
> 
> I agree that he is an impressive character, and heroes _are_
> important, however, he might be a little too 'clear-cut'....
> 
> As a story, _The Odyssey, is more approachable than _The Iliad_:
> it's a little like the adventure films we know with clear-cut
> characters. Odysseus struggles against external villains,
> seductresses, cannibals, his own mutinous men, the suitors in his
> home. In the process of returning home, he undergoes an 'internal
> pilgrimage' as well.
> 
> I think that the complex character Achilles in _the Iliad_, has a
> large value to transhumanists because his situations are more
> similar to what we are now, and what we will face in the near
> future. Achilles' struggles are primarily reflections of his fight
> with the *beast within*. It's a confrontation with the tensions
> within human nature that lurk in us underneath our civilation's
> veneer. Achilles withdraws from his community, a ruinous existence,
> then wrestles his beast in a more ruinous way via his vengeance. The
> reader then see what happens when vengeance goes too far. When he
> becomes angry, his anger does not allow him to accept changes or
> shifts in attitude, and he embarks upon a murderous rampage. Yet he
> undergoes a startling transformation. After he is wronged and
> becomes angry, he withdraws from his environment, and, while alone,
> realizes that the entire martial system of honor is bankrupt and
> based on a lie. Achilles' heroism at his end is quite different than
> Odysseus' too: Odysseus regains his kin through the sheer strength
> of his spirit and the power of his genius; Achilles loses what
> family he had, to claim some new sense of honor well beyond a world
> that he wants no part of.
> 
> As in most of the Greek classics, the following important ideas are
> presented: learning comes through effort, men are social creatures,
> human life is tragically short and therefore comes with obligations,
> character is a matter of matching words with deeds, religion is
> separate from and subordinate to politics, private property should
> be immune from government coercion, the truth only emerges through
> dissent and open criticism, the most dangerous animal is the beast
> within us, leaders ignore the will of the assembly at their peril.
> In the Iliad, these ideas are again presented, but more honestly than
> the other epic, and without apology and elaboration.
> 
> Have a good Thanksgiving, and rest of December and New Years.
> 
> Amara
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