[extropy-chat] Re: POLL: Principles of Extropy

Samantha Atkins sjatkins at gmail.com
Sun Oct 17 05:15:55 UTC 2004


On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 13:37:07 -0700 (PDT), "Hal Finney" <hal at finney.org> wrote:
> But as far as the pure discussion of whether Bush or Kerry is better,
> and the even more contentious issues like whether the Iraq war was
> justified, I don't know that we are very successful or productive in
> those discussions.  Arguing Bush vs Kerry is, as far as I am concerned,
> much like arguing Yankees vs Red Sox.  We have as much influence on the
> outcome in each case.  

Not quite.  Yankees vs Red Sox is not subject to a popular election. 
Individuals attempting to explain their positions and sway other
indviduals in elective politics  do have an effect.   At a stretch we
could also say that discussing these things is an exercise in applied
rationality (or its absence).    I am rather biased in that:

a) I don't see how Bush's record as president could possibly be more
sorry and indicative that he doesn't deserve a second term;

b) Neither candidtate stand for (publicly) much that I consider real
or important;

c) I believe we are in for a very difficult four years regardless of
who wins although I think Kerry is by far the more rational of the
two.  And no, the difficult is not terrorism.  It is soaring energy
costs, possible collapse of the dollar and massive economic problems.


It activates vestigial monkey instincts to have
> these arguments and gives us some primal satisfaction to vent, but I
> don't think it is a truly valuable and beneficial experience for anyone.
> It just gets people mad, to no constructive end.
>

I would not characterize all such discussions as "venting".  I think
such characterization is part of what is unproductive.

 
> If you really care about politics, I recommend getting involved with
> local political groups and campaigns.  Now is a perfect time to do so,
> many people are just getting interested and I think most campaigns will
> welcome volunteers.  That's a more productive way to spend your time
> than shouting on a mailing list.  You'll meet interesting people and
> make a difference.  And I suspect that you're far more likely to convert
> a voter by going to his door, shaking his hand and handing out a piece
> of literature than by even the most impassioned online argumentation,
> which will inevitably be countered by an equally impassioned advocate
> for the other side.
>

Again, charactizations such as "shouting on a mailing list" deny
people legitimate voicing of concerns and thoughts online within their
online communities.   As much as we would sometimes wish this list to
be more specialized many here experience this list as an extended
family and place where they can be visible in various important
aspects.  Disowning certain types of sharing upfront or negatively
painting them lessens the community and the possibilities for fruitful
sharing and even learning from one another.   Surely one of the things
we need to learn as we seek extropy is to discuss even difficult
matters without merely "shouting".
    

- samantha



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