Spirits (was RE: [extropy-chat] Qualia Bet.)

[Brent Allsop]

Hi David,

Thanks for joining this conversation!

Absolutely speaking, you are right.  This kind of simple effing will not
prove much absolutely.  Just as like now, for the time being, we must accept
the possibility that we are a brain in a vat (or matrix).  But I think it is
a safe (and more importantly a productive) bet to assume we are not - and
that most people experience color qualia with some amount of consistency.

But, when we do finally discover just what phenomenal properties are and
precisely what there neural correlates are (a requirement before we will be
able to eff in any way)  I bet the correlation between the objectively
observed causal properties and the subjectively observed phenomenal
properties will be such that it will be obvious why red is the way it is,
why salty, sound and other qualia are so different from red and each other,
and so on.  And I bet it is a good bet that there will be absolute
consistency between what we can objectively observe (and experience in
ourselves as red) and what everyone else claims is the same red.  In other
words, there will be no unexplainable subjective exceptions to the newly
discovered correlation between some particular correlate that turns out to
be red, and real always and forever subjective red.

So after this discovery of what qualia are (or how they correlate to causal
matter) we will know with much more surety what other minds are like and
what they are experiencing.  But the ultimate proof will come when we are
able to merge multiple minds into single conscious worlds - like our pair of
brain hemispheres are merged into a single conscious world.  If we
experience red in our left hemisphere and green in our right hemisphere at
the same time - it is absolutely proven to us what each of these are and how
they are different from each other.  Eventually, when there are multiple
conscious entities in the same conscious world - they too - will know with
absolute surety since they will be experiencing or ware of the same
phenomenal properties in the same unified or shared mind not just the same
kind of phenomenal properties in a different mind.

And when we are doing things like this - it will prove once and for all that
the matrix movies are just fiction - that we are not in a simulation, and we
will finally know that we can, as far as epistemology is concerned, reliably
know things.  And the world will be a drastically different place - all
thanks to the discovery of Qualia - what will surely be by far the most
significant scientific achievement to date.

All if this theory of mind turns out to be the one that is right.


Brent Allsop


> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org [mailto:extropy-chat-
> bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of David McFadzean
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 4:52 PM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: Re: Spirits (was RE: [extropy-chat] Qualia Bet.)
> 
> On 11/28/05, Brent Allsop <allsop at extropy.org> wrote:
> 
> > When, in your field of vision you see a patch of red, next to a patch of
> > green, next to a patch of a new phenomenal property that you have never
> > experienced before (say a tetrachromat is effing to you who is a normal
> > trichromat) you will know you are effing.  Even if it is turtles all the
> way
> > down (yea right!) who will care?  Right?
> 
> I don't think so. Let's assume that we experiment with a real effing
> machine.
> We find a group of stones that all look like the same colour (blue) to us
> normal trichromats but a tetrachromat is able to separate the stones into
> two groups. We can tell the tetrachromat perceives them differently
> because
> they can repeatedly separate them into the same groups even if they are
> first randomized outside the tetrachromat's sight. Let's assume that the
> distinction becomes obvious to normal trichromats if an ultraviolet
> light is used to illuminate the stones.
> 
> Now we hook you up the tetrachromat with the effing machine and find that
> you too can repeatedly separate the stones into two groups in normal
> light.
> Before they all looked blue, but when hooked up to the effing machine they
> appear to you as dark blue and light blue. So you separate the stones and
> your
> choices are validated after with the ultraviolet light.
> 
> So does that mean you experienced the same qualia as the tetrachromat?
> There is no way to tell. It is possible, but it is also possible the
> tetrachromat
> sees the stones as dark green and light green, or as yellow and orange, or
> as rough and smooth, or as warm and cold, or something else we have no
> words for.
> 
> So even if the effing machine works it still doesn't tell us what it
> like to be a tetrachromat.
> 
> :D
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo/extropy-chat