[extropy-chat] Re: US not right to invade say Iraqis

Herb Martin HerbM at learnquick.com
Fri Dec 16 18:20:52 UTC 2005


> -----Original Message-----
> From: extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org 
> [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf Of 
> John K Clark
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 11:49 AM
> To: ExI chat list
> Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: US not right to invade say Iraqis 
> 
> "Brett Paatsch" <bpaatsch at bigpond.net.au>
> 
> > This question of whether or not the invasion of Iraq on 20 
> March 2003 was
> > in violation of the UN Charter....
> 
> ....is of zero practical interest and has precious little of even 
> theoretical
> significance to offer. The interesting question is whether or not the
> invasion of Iraq on 20 March 2003 was a good idea or not. We 
> know now that
> it was not a good idea, 

No, we patently do NOT "know that" --  What we KNOW is that
25,000,000 people were freed from the Rape, Torture, and Murder
of Saddam's regime (which would not have happened under any
conceivable alternative within the next 5-30 years) and that
his (admitted) support for international terrorism in general
and Al Qaeda in specific is ended.  (Yes, there was documented
support for Al Qaeda, only how much is debatable.)

We know that Libya changed their behavior (so far) due to the
example made of Saddam.  We know that Lebanon has made much
progress and this is partially attributable to the Iraqi 
example and the US presence "next door" to Syria which has
thwarted Lebanese attempts at peace and democracy for decades.

We know that it cost a lot of money.  We know that some 2000+
US soldiers have died (and we know that while this is a tragedy
for every one of them and their families individually, this is
tiny compared with any other military action of any significance
much less in of this large effect.  (Some 20,000 paratroops were
EXPECTED to be sacrificed on D-Day just to distract the Germans
from the beaches of Normandy, and more troops were lost in a
practice run a few weeks before the Normandy invasion.)

We know that we got the US forces out of Saudi Arabia (which was
one of the unmentioned goals), and that we have strategic 
position on both Iran and Syria (and Saudi Arabia even) from 
Iraq.

We know that the HARDEST thing for a large conventional army to
do when faced with terrorist or insurgency forces is to FIND
AND FIX the enemy so that the superior numbers and weapons can
be brought to effective use.  We know that by attracting the
terrorists to Iraq we accomplish that.

We know that the Iraqis are admirably moving towards a true
democracy in a part of the world (Arab Middle East) where the
naysayers and pessimists claim that such people cannot understand
or support democracy.

We know a lot of things, but deciding it was not a good idea
is not one of them.

Depends on who you ask -- and if you ask those troops who lost
their friends and who risk their lives you will almost universally
find they believe it was a VERY GOOD THING.

So do most of us who have served and would server again if asked.

Of course it was right to invade -- not only did EVERY BRANCH of
the US government agree but also the UN, both before and after
the invasion, as well as the Iraqi people.

Many people overlook the simple fact that the UN Security Resolution
1441 UNANIMOUSLY found Saddam in breach on WMD requirements and 
authorized force to remove Saddam.  It remained the controlling
resolution even though it was purposely written to give cover to
Security Council member states who could point to this ambiguousness
while they fully understood what they voted to support.

Even Syria agreed Saddam was in violation and authorized the removal.

BTW, we also know that it is a sad state of affairs that the UN
has to use such reasons (WMD) rather than the humanitarian concerns
for an enslaved people -- this is due to the fact that a large
percentage of the member states have their own forms of dictatorship
to a lesser or greater extent and so do not wish to set the 
precedent that saving a nation is reason to remove a violent
dictator and murderer.

Oh yes, we also know that Saddam is on trial and will be judged by
those same Iraqi people who he tortured and abused.

And that is a good thing -- a very good thing.

And this is STILL A STUPID THREAD.  Those who started it and the
similar ones should be ashamed of their rudeness in abusing 
the topics of this list AND their stupidity in not understanding
such issues.


--
Herb Martin




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