[extropy-chat] Famous author self destructs in public! Filmateleven.

[Brett Paatsch]

Charlie Stross wrote:

> Can we maybe agree, as extropians one and all, that in an ideal
> world involuntary and/or unwanted conception wouldn't occur,
> and that as extropians are dedicated to the improvement of the
> human condition, figuring out how to make conception a process
> under voluntary control -- preferably wired into our neurohormonal
> axis by way of gene-line engineering -- would do more to alleviate
> human suffering than any amount of on-going gaseous blathering 
> over whether humanity cuts in when the foetus reaches 10^5 cells
> or 10^8?

I can't agree with that. 

First, not everyone that posts to the ExI chat list is an extropian.
Arguably no one is. 

Two, "figuring out how to make conception a process under
voluntary control" was achieved ages ago. Don't have sex - unless
your willing get pregnant - thats seems to be the catholic position
on it, and with a few exceptions I'd have to grant them that that
would work if everyone did it.

To get gene-line engineering working as a solution as you suggest
it doesn't just have to be technologically practical it has to be 
politically practical. Guess what the catholics and others who prefer
their solution to the one you propose would vote against your solution
in large numbers even if you could get a political party to put it on the
agenda. 

Three, when humanity cuts in, as you put it, is not a trivial question.
Its an important one. And discussions about it that develop the
thinking of people involved in them are discussions worth having. 

When Galileo looked through a telescope and saw Jupiter and its
moons he was seeing what was there. If the Pope had been willing
to look through the telescope the Pope too would have seen what
was there. Perhaps the Pope would have questioned whether he
could trust this new fangled piece of technology or not but at least
his taking a look would have progressed his thinking a long a bit.
Perhaps he could have had another telescope built. Perhaps his
eminence could have gotten the telescope deconstructed and
reassembled. 

The situation with respect to discovering the truth about the 
development of humans is comparable. It is possible for people 
to look through a microscope and see for themselves how much
structure and organisation is involved in human entities at various
stages from sperm and egg to early stage embryos which appear
prior to the formation of tissues as clumps of cells. When tissues
start to form they are tissues as well as cells. This stuff can be seen
with ones own eyes. Religious people can see it if they are willing
to look at it. In the age of the internet we are able to make it more
accessible to people to see this stuff in silico for themselves. But 
we cannot make them look. Perhaps like that Pope all they want
to do is presume that they know the answer.  

It is unfortunate that it is not easier to change the minds of people
who votes matter but it never has been easy and it never has been
particularly pleasant.

I am willing to tolerate your not finding you first look at the extropy
list after a few months to be less than pleasant if it means that people
like John C Wright and Russell Wallace will look through the damn
microscope and see what it is that is the actual substance of the 
matter.   

http://virtualhumanembryo.lsuhsc.edu/HEIRLOOM/Stages/HEP_StagesFS.htm

The purpose here is too enlighten with a view to persuasion with a
view to improving the human condition. It is not likely to be possible
to do that without the people involved understanding what the human
condition at the various stages of human development is. 

Brett Paatsch