[extropy-chat] Re: A view of what politics is

Rafal Smigrodzki rafal.smigrodzki at gmail.com
Sun Oct 16 15:55:00 UTC 2005


On 10/16/05, Jack Parkinson <isthatyoujack at icqmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 10/15/05, Jack Parkinson <isthatyoujack at icqmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I posted this before - I still think the best definition of politics
> is: The
> >>> relationships between groups! At any level - from office factions to
> >>>negotiations between superpowers. Politics is only incidentally social
> >>> decision making. It is wholly about interacting communities.
>
> >> ### Is buying T-shirts from China a form of politics?
> >>No! Unless you are doing this as an expression of group values
> >>concerning Chinese group values...
> >### Now it is getting more complicated - so politics is not merely
> >"relationships between >groups" but rather "relationships between groups
> >expressing group values". And what >are "group values"? It's getting
> >positively baroque.
>
> We are discussing the meaning of politics - not the meaning of groups. A
> group has some points of congruence and some disconnectedness. Politics is
> how these opposing points develop.


### You wrote that not all relationships between groups are politics (thus
contradicting your initial definition), and specifically you wrote that
buying T-shirts from China is not politics unless it "expresses group
values". Since you introduced this additional qualification to your
definition, you need to explain it.

---------------------------------------
>
> >>>Is imprisoning an individual dissenter not a form of politics?
> >>Yes! The group expresses it's disapproval of dissent - by sanctions
> against representatives of groups that oppose it...
>
> >### Oh, our dissenter has not joined a group. Is he a group all by
> himself?
>
> Lone dissenters are NEVER 'political' - they are rugged individualists,
> deviants, and/or eccentrics until such time as they represent a group. If
> they are really unlucky they are criminals to boot! But they are not
> politicians until they can claim to represent a constituency...


### Aha. So if your group kills every rugged individualist individually
opposing the confiscation of his land, or every eccentric they disapprove
of, it is not politics.

-------------------------------------

>>So you seem to say that imprisoning a single dissenter is politics. What
> >>about hiring a hangman? Is this politics ...
> Yes!
> >>("a group's expression of approval of willingness to kill for money")?
>
> No! A group's expression of it's willingness to force compliance...
>
> >>What about a town hiring a garbage collector? A group of garbage
> collectors?
> >>Which one is not politics?
>
> I fail to see any conflict here? The group hire garbage collector(s)
> because
> the group prefers (on consensus) hygiene!


### So you imply that any hiring of an individual by a group is politics.
But killing people one by one, is not.

Interestingly, buying things from another group is not politics, according
to your views on T-shirts from China.

Curiouser and curiouser.

---------------------------------------

>### I do think a bit more of my questioning will convince the onlookers
> that
> >a lot is.
> Rafal
>
> I very much doubt that!
>
> A body politic is always and everywhere a group! Or please show me
> otherwise...


### A definition must not only allow the inclusion of all instances of the
defined entity, it must also exclude other entities that partially share
characteristics with the defined entity.

To wit, when defining a triangle you must say more than "a thingy made of
line segments". You must also make the definition specific enough to exlude
non-triangular thingies made of segments.

So, although your enthusiasm about your definition is quite refreshing, you
need to add something to your definition to exclude all the relationships
involving groups that are not politics.

Rafal
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