[ExI] rocke fuel was Re: SpaceX launch

Fri Dec 10 03:39:56 UTC 2010

On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 7:41 PM,  "spike" <spike66 at att.net> wrote:

> ... On Behalf Of Adrian Tymes
> ...
>
>>I wonder if there's a chemical reaction that can take its reactants up to
> plasma phase, without need of external input? Adrian
>
> No.  The ionization energy and Gibbs free energy numbers for all the
> elements are enough to prove there is no magic chemical reaction waiting to
> be discovered.  Those numbers show that hydrogen and oxygen is waaay good,
> with only wacky hard to control stuff like hydrogen and fluorine being
> better.  If we could handle liquid fluorine we could do *a little* better
> than the hydrogen and oxygen reaction, but we might have complaints from the
> local proletariat should we leave behind huge clouds of hydrofluoric acid
> etching to opacity the windshields on their Detroits and so forth.  {8^D

Spike is correct here.  The best you can do with hydrogen and oxygen
is about 4.5 km/sec exhaust velocity.  You need about twice that to
get a mass ratio 3 rocket into LEO.

Heating hydrogen to 3000 deg K will get you 9.8 km/sec exhaust
velocity.  It's entirely possible to do this with a big laser beam,
several GW, for a reasonable sized vehicle.  3000 deg K is 600 deg
under the melting point of tungsten.

The trick is to co-flow the gas and laser light to reduce the reradiation.

Keith

> You could theoretically make plasma with a self contained chemical reaction
> if you superheat the reactants before you combine them, but I don't think
> that is what you meant.  That would wreck the nozzle in any case.
>
> spike
>
>
>
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>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 19:19:55 -0400
> From: Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Wikileaks.
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTikX=541njGn32WUsQ+HDycMg4jdQ8uT-vqgyegO at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Dan wrote:
>
>>Sexual preferences have often been used to blackmail people -- and, in
> terms of security, has often been seen as a liability because someone might
> be blackmailed. In other words, if you were gay and in the closet, this
> might be seen as a way that foreign agents might manipulate you -- even if
> you were not, say, on their side ideologically, in their pay, or perhaps had
> a desire to change history.<
>
> This was an issue in the 90's but not anymore, at least not in my country.
> Here's a quote from website I just googled that deals with security
> clearance issues in the U.S.
>
> Of the approximately 1160 cases decided by administrative judges at Defense
> Office of Hearings and Appeals (DOHA) in 2009 only 36 cited ?Sexual
> Behavior? as a security/suitability issue. Almost all of these 36 cases
> involved criminal conduct, and about half involved criminal convictions for
> sexual offenses. Only 2 cases cited extramarital affairs, and both of these
> cases involved current sexual relationships about which their spouses were
> unaware. Involvement with prostitutes was cited in 4 cases, 5 cases cited
> possession of child pornography, and 15 cases cited sexual acts with
> children. The remaining cases involved voyeurism, exhibitionism, and
> compulsive, self-destructive viewing of pornography.
>
> It goes on to say that:
>
> sodomy, promiscuity, adultery, group sex, cyber-sex, swinging, pornography,
> sadism, masochism, fetishism, bondage and degradation, homosexuality,
> bisexuality, transsexualism, and transvestism are not disqualifying
> conditions for a security clearance.
>
> Full article here.
>
> http://www.clearancejobs.com/cleared-news/117/sexual-behavior-and-security-clearances
>
> The irony with the policy even when it was in effect was that the majority
> of gay men and women I knew in the 90's with high security clearance in
> federal positions stayed in the closet not because of their fear of public
> exposure but because if they did come out they would lose their clearance
> and jobs.  If  you did come out, you lost your clearance because it was said
> you could be black-mailed. If you didn't, you kept the clearance but then
> you really could be black-mailed, depending on the level of your fear of
> exposure. If you admitted to being gay in the job interview or if it turned
> up in your security back-ground check, you got neither the job nor the
> clearance.
>
> The whole thing was simply bigotry disguised as policy, in my opinion.
> Although it's not polite to say it, and no-one ever does, a long-time friend
> in the Canadian diplomatic core informed me that the bronze statue of Sir
> Lancelot in front of the peace tower in Ottawa was cast in the likeness of
> Prime Minster Lester B Pearson's young male lover. And he won the nobel
> peace prize. Pearson, I mean. I don't think the young guy won anything. To
> my knowledge.
>
> Darren
>
> 2010/12/9 Dan <dan_ust at yahoo.com>
>
>> I don't think that's true. Sexual preferences have often been used to
>> blackmail people -- and, in terms of security, has often been seen as a
>> liability because someone might be blackmailed. In other words, if you were
>> gay and in the closet, this might be seen as a way that foreign agents might
>> manipulate you -- even if you were not, say, on their side ideologically, in
>> their pay, or perhaps had a desire to change history.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> *From:* Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
>> *To:* ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> *Sent:* Thu, December 9, 2010 12:36:32 PM
>> *Subject:* Re: [ExI] Wikileaks.
>>
>> Anders wrote:
>>
>> >No, nutters are common. It is just that most of they do not matter. (proud
>> recipient of two crazy missives today)<
>>
>> Since 2001 it's been very difficult to determine who may be nutters and who
>> may not. Someone mentioned the likelihood of people on this group being on
>> enemy lists (can't find the post now but I know I read it.) I can say from
>> experience it doesn't take much to make them. After the U.S. invaded Iraq I
>> began writing some unflattering essays on U.S. foreign and domestic security
>> policy and published some of them in a book of essays released in 2005 in
>> Canada. It was then that I began to notice some unusual traffic on my .ca
>> website -- U.S. government agencies, including the FBI, were regularly
>> crawling it. Hardly anyone read or bought that book, but someone apparently
>> noticed it. I took the site down eventually.
>>
>> A few years later when living in California I became friends with an
>> infamous gay pornographer who had been called by a Tuft's University
>> professor in a lecture on 21st century morality "the embodiment of the
>> post-human." Because of this friendship, I again went on the U.S.
>> intelligence radar. I am now the proud owner of an FBI file. I would not
>> even have known this much if I hadn't been introduced in San Francisco to an
>> ex-FBI agent who was a friend of a friend. I really don't understand the
>> world of intelligence and enemy lists and national security anyway. The
>> lines between what is considered subversive activity, and even thinking, and
>> what is civically acceptable are so blurred that the whole thing has become
>> one big, sinister mess.
>>
>> It was easier in the old days, when you could be black-listed for carrying
>> a copy of Das Capital across the border but the kind of sex you preferred
>> would only affect your chances for getting elected to public office.
>>
>>
>> Darren
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> "In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
> stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
> Remembrance of the Daleks
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:06:06 -0800
> From: Adrian Tymes <atymes at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] SpaceX launch
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTin2zVWSdEs3v=HJKxxV0gen3C+MfaokJ8RXd+Bm at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 3:03 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> You could theoretically make plasma with a self contained chemical reaction
>> if you superheat the reactants before you combine them, but I don't think
>> that is what you meant. ?That would wreck the nozzle in any case.
>
> If one can superheat the fuel anyway, one might as well simply superheat it
> directly to plasma and don't bother reacting it.  Unless one includes a
> short-lived fusion reactor as part of the engine, of course.
>
> Then again, that's "short-lived" as in "approximately 10 minutes", whereas with
> modern experimental fusion reactors, 10 seconds is considered a very long
> reaction.  (Which makes me wonder how they think they'll get it to commercial
> practicality, which requires sustained power output for hours at least.  I also
> can't help but wonder if engineering for extremely short reactions is part of
> the reason why big fusion reactors have not produced progress
> commensurate with their expense.)
>
> Might anyone know of experiments in long duration plasma containment?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 18:58:35 -0600
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: "'ExI chat list'" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
> Message-ID: <4D017B3B.3090200 at satx.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5M9UTlDb10>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 21:12:09 -0400
> From: Darren Greer <darren.greer3 at gmail.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTik=m4vs86Qo3vKZc0BCnZ_KDHFzLvvHxL_uL0wX at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Thanks for posting Damien. Big Johnathon Coulton fan here.  My favourite is
> The Mandelbrot Set song, with the video made by some Cornell students.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES-yKOYaXq0
>
> Darren
>
> 2010/12/9 Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
>
>> <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5M9UTlDb10>
>> _______________________________________________
>> extropy-chat mailing list
>> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
>> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>>
>
>
>
> --
> "In the end that's all we have: our memories - electrochemical impulses
> stored in eight pounds of tissue the consistency of cold porridge." -
> Remembrance of the Daleks
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 09 Dec 2010 19:27:38 -0600
> From: Damien Broderick <thespike at satx.rr.com>
> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
> Subject: Re: [ExI] Have a Soylent Green Xmas!
> Message-ID: <4D01820A.7020506 at satx.rr.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
> I suppose that should have been a "Soylent Night" Xmas...
>
> Damien Broderick
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 9 Dec 2010 16:43:52 -0600
> From: Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
> To: diybio <diybio at googlegroups.com>, wta-talk at transhumanism.org,
>        extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org, Bryan Bishop <kanzure at gmail.com>
> Subject: [ExI] Halcyon Molecular interview
> Message-ID:
>        <AANLkTimfFQcmriGKKyymNL8dA2YNfmJuOFNhpDGUGQv5 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Halycon Molecular interview
> http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/12/interview-of-gene-sequencing-expert.html
>
> """
> Here is the William Andregg interview by Sander Olson. Mr. Andregg is the
> CEO and founder of Halcyon Molecular <http://halcyonmolecular.com/updates/>.
> Along with his brother, Michael, William invented the core polymer placement
> technology which allows rapid and inexpensive sequencing of DNA. Mr. Andregg
> is confident that by 2015 complete human genomes will be sequenced for only
> $1,000. He believes that DNA sequencing will eventually become sufficiently
> sophisticated, automated, and inexpensive that scientists will be able to
> sequence every tree in a forest, and may lead to advanced nanotechnology.
>
> In a recent episode of TechCrunch TV?s ?Speaking Of..?, Halcyon Molecular
> CEO William Andregg spoke about his dream to extend human lifespans long
> enough to travel to other star systems. William explains how his early focus
> on astronomy and physics eventually gave way to intense study of biology for
> that reason. In the video, he says how he is fascinated by long-living
> creatures like the Gal?pagos tortoise and bowhead whale, and expresses
> optimism about how advanced biotechnology could determine their
> longevity-relevant molecular differences and use that knowledge to develop
> life-extension therapies for humans.
>
> *Question*: How much does it currently cost to sequence ones genome?
>
> *Answer*: Depends on what you mean by ?sequence ones genome?. If you want a
> truly complete sequence, you can?t get that now. You could spend millions of
> dollars and you still wouldn?t have even a single truly complete human
> genome. There are much cheaper options to get something far less accurate
> and useful- getting down to about $10,000 currently. But we?re hoping that
> in five years when people talk about ?sequencing ones genome?, they really
> mean it- really sequencing the whole thing, not just seeing part of it.
>
> *Question*: How much of the entire human genome have we currently sequenced?
>
> *Answer*: The most comprehensive reference assembly for the human genome
> still contains hundreds of gaps as of 2010, with millions and millions of
> missing bases.
>
> *Question*: Current gene sequencing techniques employ short reads. What is
> the limitation with this approach?
>
> *Answer*: Think of jigsaw puzzles. If a jigsaw puzzle has just a few big
> pieces like the ones they make for three year olds, it?s trivial to solve.
> But if it has tens of thousands of pieces like some expert-level jigsaw
> puzzles do, then it?s going to be a huge pain. That?s current sequencing
> technology. Short reads are the tiny jigsaw puzzle pieces. We want to solve
> the puzzle of the genome using the biggest pieces possible.
>
> *Question*: So does that also help make the sequencing faster as well?
>
> *Answer*: Yes, it makes putting the whole genome together less
> computationally intensive and thereby faster. It also improves the overall
> accuracy because with longer reads you can be more confident in the ordering
> of repetitive regions.
>
> *Question*: You claim that DNA sequencing has the potential to "turn
> medicine into an information science". What exactly do you mean by that?
>
> *Answer*: Taking the guesswork out of it, making it a precise, predictive
> science and less an art. In ten years you?ll have orders of magnitude more
> information about your own body and biology, and the sequencing revolution
> will be a big part of that. Biomedical researchers will also have orders of
> magnitude more information in general about how life works, and how health
> turns to illness.
>
>
> *Question*: How do your views on longevity and life extension compare with
> those of Aubrey de Grey and Ray Kurzweil?
>
> *Answer*: Parts of SENS urgently should be funded and tested. That being
> said, I work on sequencing and not on SENS, because our approach to curing
> aging is first to turn biology into an information science- actually getting
> to untangling the morass of metabolism that SENS does an end run around. I
> believe we can get to a complete mechanistic understanding of human biology
> in only a few decades, which is a timeline more like Kurzweil?s. On the
> other hand, if SENS were being vigorously pursued today, it might save
> millions of lives before the total understanding approach avails us. It is
> good to have multiple bets.
>
> As for Kurzweil, maybe this isn?t fair, and I?d like to hear his thoughts on
> it, but I?m afraid his books demotivate people who would otherwise
> contribute to the cause, maybe by giving the impression to some that the
> Singularity is not only coming, but actually inevitable. Eat right,
> exercise, take these pills, and don?t worry- those smart hardworking
> scientists over there will solve everything for you. In contrast, a great
> thing about Aubrey as a leader is that he harangues people to actually get
> off their asses and make a contribution.
>
> We might not survive the next twenty years. We may never cure aging. There
> is nothing inevitable about our success. Everyone who is talented enough to
> make a contribution should be trying to help, on all fronts, by any ethical
> means, like it?s life and death- because it is.
>
> And the very most talented ones should send their resumes immediately to
> Halcyon.
>
> *Question*: How will high-throughput DNA sequencing directly benefit
> longevity research?
>
> *Answer*: We?ll sequence the genomes of every centenarian and every
> supercentenarian, and find out which genes directly relate to longevity and
> to early morbidity and mortality. We?ll sequence long-lived organisms, like
> the Galapagos tortoise, the bowhead whale, the bristlecone pine. We?ll
> sequence all species of Rockfish, a whole genus where there?s almost an
> order of magnitude difference in maximum lifespans between evolutionary
> close cousins. And all of that just scrapes the iceberg- that?s not even the
> imaginative or ambitious answer.
>
> The grand design is to read, write, program DNA. The better and faster and
> cheaper you do that, the sooner we?ll hack biology and be free from disease.
> Billions of individual human genomes, and billions of genomes of
> domesticated animals, is only the beginning. The amount of genomic
> information on this planet that might help us hack biology is orders of
> magnitude vaster than that. You have quadrillions of unique genomes in your
> body, counting the metagenome of all your individual genomically different
> cells and the metagenome of all the stuff living in and on you. Someone will
> probably want to sequence every tree in a forest, or every leaf on a tree,
> or every bacterium in a speck of seawater. Someone will definitely sequence
> every ear of corn in a cornfield. We?ll probably sequence all the
> charismatic megafauna we can find on the planet, and all the trillions of
> less glamorous animals as well. But even that is only the beginning. People
> will do forward genetics studies where they sequence trillions of individual
> cells or model organisms. And there may be just as much or more sequencing
> of artificial genomes or genetic constructs in the course of solving
> synthetic biology- the writing and programming part of the grand design.
> Tangentially, synthetic biology might be the least insanely difficult way to
> robust nanotechnology, making anything you want from spoons to space
> elevators, just like your cells build things with atomic precision all the
> time, using a billion year old programming language that we aim to
> completely understand. And so sequencing might turn out to be upstream of a
> lot more than merely freeing humanity from all disease.
>
> *Question*: Is Halcyon Molecular expanding? Are there any plans for an IPO?
>
> *Answer*: Expanding carefully, with an extremely high bar. We only want the
> best of the best, of the best of the best of the best- iterating that to
> somewhere way above the 99th percentile. And the team we?ve built so far is
> like that, just unbelievably good. I think the level of talent in the
> Halcyon project might be every bit as elite as it was in the teams that
> worked on the Manhattan or Apollo projects. And given what we?re trying to
> do, that?s exactly how it should be.
> As for the IPO question, if doing an IPO is consistent with the mission,
> we?ll do it. Halcyon is a mission with a company, not the other way around.
> Right now only people who care first and foremost about the mission have
> significant stock in the company. We?d have to think long and hard about
> letting that change.
>
> *Question*: Who is funding Halcyon?
>
> *Answer*: Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Founders Fund, and several angels. We?ve
> also won about three million dollars in grants from NIH and other government
> agencies.
>
> *Question*: How long will it take before sequencing the human genome falls
> to $1,000?
>
> *Answer*: Well, right now it has infinity to fall from, because you can?t
> buy a complete human genome yet at any price. But as soon as that?s
> available- I think 2012 is a good guess- then we?ll see a thousand dollar
> complete genome in 2013.
>
> *Question*: How much progress in this field can be expected by 2020?
>
> *Answer*: Probably depends on how many of your most brilliant readers send
> me their CV?s today. Individual choices are what really matter to the arc of
> history.
> """
>
> - Bryan
> http://heybryan.org/
> 1 512 203 0507
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>
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