[ExI] extropy-chat Digest, Vol 81, Issue 4
Danavictorston at aol.com
Danavictorston at aol.com
Fri Jun 4 07:03:29 UTC 2010
After 4 years of dedication I've left the Universalist Unitarian church .
My view is the UU church is good to a point . We lost our minister , the
board elect is now republican and atheist and the result is a 'fall in line'
approach to a don't make waves agenda. The spiritual empowerment i need
from a church is trust in it's people the UU church I left is based on faith
in it's policies and not its members.
Dana
In a message dated 6/3/2010 8:00:31 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
extropy-chat-request at lists.extropy.org writes:
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: to install (John Grigg)
2. Re: two observations (John Grigg)
3. Jeanne Robinson, wife of Spider Robinson, has died due to
cancer (John Grigg)
4. Re: to install (Tom Nowell)
5. Re: to install (samantha)
6. Re: to install (samantha)
7. Re: to install (samantha)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 2 Jun 2010 23:54:36 -0700
From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
To: ddraig at pobox.com, ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] to install
Message-ID:
<AANLkTimbNpSYqefHrnsfkkOCUvm_IF4jMfRuitukA-7c at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hold on here, for those of you who reject conservative mainstream/old
school denominations & faiths, why not attend a Unitarian Universalist
congregation?? LOL
I have attended Unitarian services a few times, and they definitely teach
ethics
(special classes for the children) & also have fun social gatherings. I am
very impressed with what I have heard about their "OWL" training
program to teach kids about sex.
John
On 6/2/10, ddraig <ddraig at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 3 June 2010 13:19, Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>
>> Why shouldn't there be a place that people can go to feel loved?
>>
>
> What if you are gay, or of some wildly different faith? What then? It
seems
> to me that pretty much all churches are places you can go to feel loved
*as
> long as you fit into their narrow definition of allowable memesets*
>
>
> If I want to feel loved, I'll go to rave. Ooooooodles of love, gushing
out
> all over everyone there.
>
>
> I don't buy into this concept that you need to believe in some giant
> invisible sapce-wizard to lead a moral life. I grew up reading a lot of
> greek and roman classics from an early age. I am an extremely moral and
> upright person. Annoyingly so, according to most of the people I know. My
> parents are *fiercely* anti-religion and the only time I have *ever*
been to
> a church is for a wedding. Or a funeral.
>
> Sometimes I'll rock up to cathedral to ooh and aaah at the architecture.
> It seems to me if you can't teach your children morals and values without
> some external (and bullshit-based) structure and support group, you're
> failing as a parent. I'd say you should not have had kids at all, but
that
> tends to get breeders all flippy-outy and punchy-punchy.
>
>
> Dwayne
> --
> ddraig at pobox.com irc.deoxy.org #chat
> ...r.e.t.u.r.n....t.o....t.h.e....s.o.u.r.c.e...
> http://www.barrelfullofmonkeys.org/Data/3-death.jpg
> our aim is wakefulness, our enemy is dreamless sleep
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 00:09:28 -0700
From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] two observations
Message-ID:
<AANLkTimQ2hKnLgKGwOll684dnVDg0ppHJPbSmZPqIQxc at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
When I was new to Arizona I encountered a large soft object bouncing
off my head. I looked down and there was a fairly large tarantula who
was obviously used to walking on the ceiling, but it had gotten too
big for such an activity and so gravity took over! lol
I remember another time when a large white spider (the size of a large
tarantula, I assume it was one) came inside and ran around the place
like a speed demon! I'd never seen a tarantula move like this (I
always thought they were fairly slow moving creatures) and I could not
catch the lightning fast arachnid. I opened up a door and amazingly,
the spider ran right out and I never saw it again. I sometimes wonder
if there was a genetic engineering lab nearby...
John
On 6/2/10, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>
>
> ...On Behalf Of Kevin Freels
> Subject: Re: [ExI] two observations
>
> >>I think it's interesting the way spiders fly...
>
> >...As I turned my head to follow I could see hundreds, or perhaps
> thousands of spider silk strands shimmering in the sky. It was weird, but
> beautiful...
>
>
> Spiders are an example of bugs with the habit of doing something in
unison,
> like your thousands of silk strands example. My own is when I went on a
> motorcycle ride in the Mojave Desert on a hot spring morning in 1984,
soon
> after having moved there. I had never seen a tarantula, but that day I
saw
> one, stopped, examined it. Then another and another, as I headed out
toward
> Death Valley. Then dozens per mile, crossing the road, from east to
west,
> all of them walking walking walking, like something out of a horror
flick.
> Oy. Good thing I like bugs, jeeeeez.
>
> That was the only time I ever actually saw a tarantula migration in
> progress, even though I went out there on that same road dozens of times.
>
> spike
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSIGcWATJ3g
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> extropy-chat mailing list
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
> http://lists.extropy.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/extropy-chat
>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 00:19:55 -0700
From: John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>, World
Transhumanist Association Discussion List
<wta-talk at transhumanism.org>, transfigurism
<transfigurism at googlegroups.com>
Subject: [ExI] Jeanne Robinson, wife of Spider Robinson, has died due
to cancer
Message-ID:
<AANLkTin9vAgfy5MeBlkktMvCU723QQwbiEVFrmfXvYYk at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
One of my favorite science fiction writers, Spider Robinson, has
shared this about the passing of his wife from cancer.
If you have not read Robinson's the "Callahan's Saloon" novels, you
should. They are among the most humanistic and touching sf/fantasy
stories I have ever read.
Subject: Buchi Eihei In pacem
From: Spider
Jeanne Robinson left this life at about 4:45 Sunday afternoon, a gentle
smile on her face.
Her departure was quite peaceful and she was in no pain at all.
(Buchi Eihei means "dancing wisdom, eternal peace". It's the name Jeanne's
Soto Zen
instructor bestowed on her).
--Spider"
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Thu, 3 Jun 2010 09:41:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: Tom Nowell <nebathenemi at yahoo.co.uk>
To: extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org
Subject: Re: [ExI] to install
Message-ID: <718218.72776.qm at web27003.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Spike wrote:" In my own case in having to instill moral values in my own
3 yr old son, I am stuck in a wildly paradoxical position. I can allow him
to go with his mother to church, but I am in a position of having to
carefully explain that while the ethical and moral values are OK, the entire
theory behind them, the entire memetic infrastructure in support of
it, is *completely* wrong, no truth there at all.
So what would go on in the mind of a child, given such instruction? I
haven't said anything yet, but I flatly refuse to tell him anything I know
to be false.
spike"
Here we hit the big question - how to install a filter against memetic
infiltration that will last until adult reasoning is sufficiently developed
and will hopefully provide backup when they're adults.
A three year-old is still at the stage where magical thinking comes
naturally. You read the them a fairy tale and read them a short story by a master
of western literature, and they'll probably think the fairy tale makes
more sense than the literature. As psychology is full of contradictory
studies, I honestly couldn't say how long a period of magical thinking is
necessary for normal development.
The traditional method of keeping your child free from the strange ideas
of people not like yourself is to ram their brains full of the traditions
and ideas of people like yourself so anything they're exposed to will bounce
off your pre-installed ideas. But you've dumped the traditions of your
people in order to embrace shiny and new philosophical ideas of the future.
So, do you try and teach them sensibly and hope they don't pick up strange
memes from the people they meet at school? Or do you go radical
transhumanist and make up fairy stories about the future - teach Nick Bostrom's
parable of the great dragon as if it is prophecy, read Dr Broderick's tales for
children each night, and tell them that there's no such thing as a soul or
how do you hope to be uploaded? Admittedly, this may cause some dogmatic
thinking on their part when they're grown up, but looking at this list's
arguments there's plenty of Idees fixe amongst articulate and apparently
rational transhumanists.
Finally, to play devil's advocate - what if your children just aren't as
rational and intelligent as you? Of course, your child is special and will
go on to do great things and live out your dreams by proxy. But just suppose
for a minute your cosy illusion is utterly wrong, and there's nothing
special about your child - they're firmly in the 95-105 IQ range, no more given
to logic or dreaming than any other kid in their class - are you quite
sure your methods for protecting them from harmful memes will still work?
Tom
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 03:57:43 -0700
From: samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] to install
Message-ID: <4C078AA7.108 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Anna Taylor wrote:
> Thank you Jef. Yes I watched it when you posted it on facebook. Again,
my... was exactly what you would call Catholic or others would call
synoguoges or place of worship. My comment was not in referal to a suggestive
church or religion it was about "churches", which I believe should be called:
A place to help others at no cost.
How is that? There are huge costs. They instill mystical claptrap as
the basis for everything they teach. It becomes a sort of package deal
in the minds of many. The claptrap is the reason why the morality is so
and the reason why every thing good in their lives is good is because
they are good. Vicious circle. This is not by accident. Religions are
designed to install themselves in this way. Instead of learning ethics
on the basis of reason and reality a version of ethics is learned based
on mysticism and acceptance on faith. This is incredibly costly. It
splits the mind that takes it seriously. Most minds don't take it that
seriously out of self-defense. As a result ethics becomes this
untrustworthy realm one gives lip service to but really does not have
integrated at all. Morality is split from reality. The mind
compartmentalizes after all and simply will no longer look at some
things deeply. Very costly.
On top of this churches generally encourage heavy tithing and other
volunteering of "time and talents". More costs.
> Probably the wrong choice of words. How about "A place to be nice?".
I actually agree with part of that. A place where you just let down the
card and open your heart right on up. Seems to me we can do that and
make places to do with one another without all the rest though.
> When I replied it was because someone mentioned, "well parents should
just teach their children". My apology if that wasn't clear. Not all adults
have been well taught, where can they go to get spiritual help?
What exactly is this "spiritual" help? You mean just life help and
learning to be as well as you can be and enjoy life and be a boon to
self and others? You don't need religion for that. There is humanism,
self-help groups, therapy, trusted friends, support systems - all
without church or religion.
> I still think churches should be a place of spiritual growth but i'm
aware that it's not that easy. Just as it isn't just that easy to ban
churches and expect spiritual growth to simply appear without any form of
guidance.
Same question. What is "spiritual growth" as opposed to just plain
growth as a human being (and more)? I am very curious about that. I
know from experience that it can feel different, very different. But I
am not at all sure why or that the why is something to be trusted.
- samantha
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 04:07:44 -0700
From: samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>
To: ddraig at pobox.com, ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] to install
Message-ID: <4C078D00.203 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
ddraig wrote:
> On 3 June 2010 13:19, Anna Taylor <femmechakra at yahoo.ca
> <mailto:femmechakra at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
>
>
> Why shouldn't there be a place that people can go to feel loved?
>
>
> What if you are gay, or of some wildly different faith? What then? It
> seems to me that pretty much all churches are places you can go to
> feel loved *as long as you fit into their narrow definition of
> allowable memesets*
Depends on the church. As the Mormons came up recently I most
definitely would not recommend being or attempting to become Mormon if
you are queer in gender and/or sexuality. I had friends in both camps
that went through a great deal of pain and damage due to the Mormon
stance on such things. It was no accident that the Mormons were
strongly involved in stopping gay marriage in California.
That said, there are open and accepting congregations in various faith
traditions.
>
> If I want to feel loved, I'll go to rave. Ooooooodles of love, gushing
> out all over everyone there.
>
Oh yeah. Very powerful too. And for that group "psychic bond" thing I
recommend a good wiccan ritual. Don't buy into the bizarre mysticism
but way more of that energy than I ever felt in church.
>
> I don't buy into this concept that you need to believe in some giant
> invisible sapce-wizard to lead a moral life. I grew up reading a lot
> of greek and roman classics from an early age. I am an extremely moral
> and upright person. Annoyingly so, according to most of the people I
> know. My parents are *fiercely* anti-religion and the only time I have
> *ever* been to a church is for a wedding. Or a funeral.
>
> Sometimes I'll rock up to cathedral to ooh and aaah at the architecture.
> It seems to me if you can't teach your children morals and values
> without some external (and bullshit-based) structure and support
> group, you're failing as a parent. I'd say you should not have had
> kids at all, but that tends to get breeders all flippy-outy and
> punchy-punchy.
Yes. I would go further and say that you can't really teach morals and
values without screwing up their minds unless you teach it devoid of
mystical nonsense.
- samantha
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Message: 7
Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2010 04:21:51 -0700
From: samantha <sjatkins at mac.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] to install
Message-ID: <4C07904F.7020304 at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
spike wrote:
>
>
>
>> ...On Behalf Of Anna Taylor
>> Subject: [ExI] to install
>>
>> The conversation went, "Well if you are going to go to
>> church, you might well as be..."
>>
>> I agree. I think churches are a really good place to learn
>> moral and valued skills... Does eveyone agree?
>>
>> Just curious
>> Anna
>>
>
> Hi Anna, goooood question. In my own case in having to instill moral
values
> in my own 3 yr old son, I am stuck in a wildly paradoxical position.
At that age the basic lesson, which may not take for a few years, is
that other people are just like him inside and their feelings and needs
matter to them the same way his do to him. I remember very distinctly
the moment in my childhood when I really got that all the way through.
Much of the rest of interpersonal ethics grows out of that. The other
part of morality is learning to not attempt to bullshit reality in any
way whatsoever. It is learning to be rational and seeks to "make it
real", to actually achieve, gain and maintain what you actually value
including the wellbeing of others you value. That honest to reality
thing will not make life easy with respect to so many he will interact
with who are nearly explicitly taught to be dishonest or that their is
something more important than reality. But it is very very important.
> I can
> allow him to go with his mother to church, but I am in a position of
having
> to carefully explain that while the ethical and moral values are OK,
I don't think the ethical and moral values taught their are ok. They
are based on a non-reality set of premises and thus are ungrounded
pronouncements. They teach that anything done for yourself, because
you value it (however rationally) is probably problematic and at the
least not nearly so good as doing things for "others" - any old others,
preferably for complete strangers one has no rational interest in
whatsoever. This is a near complete perversion of honest sane ethical
and moral values.
> the
> entire theory behind them, the entire memetic infrastructure in support
of
> it, is *completely* wrong, no truth there at all.
>
If they basis is wrong then in effect saying the ethics is ok is saying
that ungrounded ethical commandments that cannot be understood to the
root are "ok". Do you really think so?
> So what would go on in the mind of a child, given such instruction? I
> haven't said anything yet, but I flatly refuse to tell him anything I
know
> to be false.
>
That is good. Careful of sins of omission though. :)
- samantha
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