[ExI] Kelly's future

[Kelly Anderson]

2011/5/11 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com>:
> This is a very interesting thread and I had fun responding...

Glad you're having fun John. It really is fascinating to delve into
the future of human and transhuman sexuality. It's at least as fun as
the more common fantasy of sex in weightlessness. For the record, I
don't think weightless sex is going to be as much fun as some people
seem to think it's going to be... From the attempts made on the Zero G
plane, it looks really, really difficult... Pole vaulting looks kind
of fun, but it looks hard too.

> On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 11:09 PM, Kelly Anderson <kellycoinguy at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> 2011/5/6 salvatore micheal / sam iam <micheals at msu.edu>:
>>
>>
>> Agreed. When the divorce rate is 50%, and a robot becomes the most
>> natural and safe 'rebound' relationship, it could get really high. I
>> think mostly it depends on whether women become less militant in the
>> future. If women have to compete with robots, will it improve the
>> women? Men are treated so shabbily in many relationships that robots
>> make a pretty reasonable alternative to further abuse. With the
>> continued growth of nasty personality disorders, I think this could
>> become pretty common.
>
> You bring up a fascinating point.  But just as we guys have our viewpoints,
> women have their own "war stories" to share and emotional scars to reveal.

I would never disagree with this. I think assholes are fairly evenly
distributed across the sexes.

> I do think many women have gotten harshly demanding, and I have seen a some
> ugly cases up close.

The interesting thing is that since the 70s, it has become vogue for
women to be assholes, whereas in the majority of human history, only
men were able to be assholes in primary relationships. I just wish it
had been the other way around, meaning that everybody just stopped
being ass holes.

> I realize many women want the handsome and successful
> alpha male type, and so when they decide to "settle" for a beta male because
> that's what they can get, they develop great resentment, and take it out on
> the poor guy that they married.

And are supported in their feelings by the uber-feminist "all sex,
even inside of marriage, is rape" crowd.

> I do think the scenario you envision is very eye-opening.  I could see at
> first men with female androids being seen as eccentric losers, but then as
> the machines get very sophisticated in terms of personality &
> intelligence, and with physical beauty to rival the most gorgeous flesh and
> blood women, that they will become accepted and then even be seen as a sign
> of wealth and status.  I suppose when the cost comes down to the area of a
> present-day luxury car, they will become relatively commonplace.

Howard Stern, the shock jock, once said he had sex with a RealDoll
provided to him. He described it as the best sex he ever had. While I
doubt this was actually the truth, he probably did have a pretty good
time. It is almost a certainty that people's attitudes about this sort
of thing will evolve and change over time. Today, it seems somewhat
mainstream for a woman to have a vibrator. They have half hour shows
for such things on the shopping network late at night. So they must
sell a butt load of this stuff. I don't think men are as open to
talking in general, and certainly not about their sex toys. But
overall sales will act as a surrogate for talking in determining when
things have reached a level of acceptance. How abnormal can porn be
when it's a 15 billion dollar industry with AT&T being a major player
in the market? Yet most people still don't talk about it openly,
because it's a fairly private thing.

> I could envision late 21st century teenage/college age boys mocking each
> other by saying, "you have only have had sex with androids!"  And at least
> for young men, having sex with real women will probably be seen as a way to
> score points with their peers and be "real men."  But as men age and find
> themselves nursing their emotional wounds, beautiful and highly intelligent
> female androids may become a popular method for getting their needs for
> companionship met.

Good points. Also, men seem to like variety and probably have more sex
drive as a gender (YMMV). Men's needs are easier to meet with an
android. For a woman to be satisfied, the android would have to listen
attentively for hours on end to the same story they just heard about
yesterday. If I could buy an android to do my listening for me, and
just relate the new information to me, it would be a HUGE time saver.
I don't really NEED to hear the same story ten times, but the women I
have been with seem to need to tell their stories many times.

> But then again, even a beautiful female android with human level/type
> intelligence might not fully meet the needs of a man.  It might be that
> a machine partner who is *programmed* to be very understanding and seemingly
> loving, might seem very unreal and superficial to flesh and blood men.
> Human-style emotional complexity and unpredictability, even harshness and
> shortcomings, might up to a point be desired.  I suppose that could be
> programmed in, but should we?

I think it would be inappropriate to create a sexbot with (to borrow
from Douglas Adams) a brain the size of a planet. At least for men. If
you look at human sexuality with any degree of science, you find that
there is a huge range of behaviors that we look for. From vampiric
sex, to S&M, to exhibitionism, to prostitution, and so on and so on.
If you could create a sexbot that enjoyed taking a beating, for
example, then I think you would find a market for that. At first this
is counter intuitive, but a neural network is just responsive to pain
and ecstasy. Just because evolution found that wiring "pain" from a
beating to the part of the brain that processes "pain", doesn't mean
that an android has to be wired the same way. You could wire it so
that it found such interaction to be pleasure, and it would go to some
length to seek that pleasure. It sounds sick, but it's just crossing
the wires.

Is it immoral to build punching bags? Will the punching bags of
tomorrow get pleasure from being hit harder? It's just a few steps
down that same road, so I think we'll get there.

>> > what will be the legal consequences? (such as with gay marriage and
>> > spousal
>> > rights)
>> >  as an example, will we be able to marry our robot gfs/studs? will they
>> > have
>> > entitlement rights?
>
> I think when an android partner has human level intelligence &
> self-awareness, you will see machine civil liberties becoming a major
> issue.   Is it right for even the manufacturing company to program their
> android with human level (or even higher) intelligence to love/be loyal
> to the human partner who bought it?  And should that android have a mind
> that allows it to drift away from/desert a human partner, when things just
> "don't work out?"

That's why I don't anticipate a high level of intelligence in
companion robots, ever. Unless you are a lab partner, not a sex
partner. Why create problems for yourself? Just create a sexual being
that lives for sex? If you have doubts that such a being could be
happy, just visit the bonobos at the zoo, if your zoo can take it. :-)

>> Health insurance for my robot partner? :-)  Eventually, if we achieve
>> AGI, I think it has to happen. Otherwise, we'll just cease to be of
>> any importance sooner.
>>
>> > what will be the social impacts of robot partners? (such as projected by
>> > the
>> > movie AI?)

The limit to your thinking here is that one robot (or one brain) has
to perform all the functions. It's said that men want a whore in bed,
a chef in the kitchen, a maid to take care of the house, and
occasionally someone to talk to, etc. Why not have multiple AGIs
hosted in the same body, and switch from one to another as the need
arises. I want my partner to be HAPPY to take out the garbage when
it's time to do that, and HAPPY to go to bed, and HAPPY to watch the
Super Bowl or Star Trek with me. Perhaps one brain can't be HAPPY at
ALL those things, so put multiple AGIs in one body, and problem
solved.

> I suppose it will go from having an android you never have coming out of the
> house with you, to it being seen as an equal that you share your life with,
> and then (among a "liberated" and very advanced android) a point may come
> where an upgradable/very advanced android may view it's human partner as
> inferior, but still stay with him/her out of a sense of loyalty and
> compassion.  I can envision advanced androids divorcing their human partners
> to share their lives with those equal to them, i.e., other androids!
> But there will be posthumans/former humans who will be worthy partners for
> them.

An android that is a thousand times smarter than you probably would
not find you an interesting partner. Perhaps this can be fixed by
upgrading the human. I dunno.

> I think marriage will also morph over time.  But I suspect reproductive sex,
> even among near-immortals, will not end over time, because mature nanotech
> and space travel & colonization (even if just within our own solar system)
> will lead to expanding populations.  And I believe many people will not
> choose (at least for the first several centuries of their lifespan) to be
> uploads.

Only time will tell. I don't know what to base such a guess on. I
guess that we do have a "need" to raise children, but I see no need
for those children to necessarily be biological.

> I suspect human exploitation will always exist, and android exploitation
> will be added to the list of crimes.  There will be some who will enjoy
> using/hurting a self-aware and highly intelligent artificial mind.

But what if you create a highly intelligent artificial mind that LIKES
being treated that way? Don't bind your thinking with evolutionary
machinery. We will be the intelligent designers. If an android likes
being treated in a particular way, then it isn't abuse to treat them
that way. If they LIKE picking strawberries, and are fulfilled by
picking strawberries, then it isn't exploitation for them to be
employed as strawberry pickers. Design the future, don't evolve it.
Why shouldn't an android get an orgasm when it picks an especially
nice strawberry? :-)

>> An aside... If I rented out a group of RealDolls, would that be a
>> brothel? Would it be illegal? Should it be illegal? Is sex with toys
>> for money a decent business model?

Sad that nobody tried answering this question...

>> > this increased dependency on robot-sex will tend to isolate humans from
>> > each
>> > other (just as the internet has a 'reversing effect' of actually
>> > isolating
>> > us - instead of 'bringing us together' as it could/should)
>
> I tend to agree with you about the isolation aspect of things.  But in time
> as fully self-aware and intelligent androids are developed, the sense of
> mechanical masturbation and loneliness will hopefully leave such couples.

Yes.

> And yet, I could easily envision human beings feeling a huge gulf between
> themselves and their very intelligent and self-aware android partners.  It
> might be far worse than those who marry mail order brides from
> very different cultures.

Again, think how you would design the perfect sex partner. You
wouldn't put a huge brain into such a creature, would you? If you
would, I think that's kind of cruel. Think Marvin or the Elevators in
Adam's books. That is cruelty.

>> I think the Internet brings us together in silos of common interest,
>> but tears us apart in the real world. My girlfriend has no interest in
>> transhumanism, for example.
>
> I have always had a similar problem with girlfriends...

Trekkies and gamers occasionally get lucky, and find a trekkie or
gamer girlfriend, but not often in my experience...

>> > it's possible there might be 'rogue robots' performing sex-crimes (such
>> > as
>> > illustrated in Robot Maid) - how do we deal with that?
>>
>> Initially, they'll be taken apart. Then the anti capital punishment
>> people will jump in as they gain human rights. It's going to be a
>> bumpy ride for sure.
>
> There have already been studies using robots capable of learning, that show
> some robots willing to share, while others actually lie and are selfish.
> And so this will only get worse as the decades go by...

Or we'll figure it out, and program them better. See my posts on
"raising" robot children.

>> > when we embrace robot gfs/studs as lovers, we create a Huge set of
>> > problems
>> > society must face in the process
>>
>> We also potentially solve a huge set of problems. These things are
>> tools, to be used for good and evil, just like any other tool. I think
>> there could be a pretty big reduction of rape in the future as
>> suitable alternatives and ubiquitous surveillance develop.
>
> I think rape is done as a hurtful power trip over other sentients, and so I
> don't think there will be a huge reduction in rapes by using androids as
> surrogates for such urges.  Surveillance tech may do a vastly better job at
> cracking down on this crime.

If there is a continuous video feed covering a broad spectrum from a
jogger's vicinity to a remote location, I suspect jogging down the
Provo River Trail would get much safer, very quickly. I think you
could design an android that LIKED being a rape victim, but also LIKED
acting like it didn't want to be a rape victim. In other words, one
that a rapist would enjoy going after, but who wasn't damaged in the
process. It's all about how you wire up the reward system.

There are similar issues in VR, but this email is getting longish.

> This will be a touchy subject when the time comes and the technology
> matures, but I see it as becoming popular.  I can envision teledildonic pods
> on every major warship and distant military base.

I predict this as the FIRST place you will see this implemented well.
Take as a precursor to this that the first documented case of the
spread of an STD from one man to another through a sex doll occurred
on a naval vessel.

In WWII, when we wouldn't talk about sex in the US, the US Army was
showing STD movies to GIs. The armed forces have a real interest in
taking the lead in these areas.

>> Or bring us closer when we have to be apart. Makes long distance
>> relationships more doable.
>
> A good point!  But a colonist on Neptune, with a wife on Earth, will have to
> deal with quite a time lag in terms of
> signals that link teledildonic devices.

If I send my "sexual state" from Neptune to Earth to have sex with my
wife through an android surrogate, and the experience is sent back to
me to enjoy in a similar fashion, then the several light hour flight
time might be somewhat overcome. Think of it as Tivo for sex. :-)

>> > whether the robots/dolls/studs will actually be capable of feelings/love
>> > is
>> > a Whole 'nother issue indeed..
>>
>> Not initially, but eventually, it seems inevitable.
>
> Yes, I agree.  I wonder to what extent their emotional range will be similar
> to ours?  And will an android be more emotionally healthy than the typical
> "normal" human?  I sure hope so...

Again, don't think of your android sex partner as a full human, or
even a full intelligence, but one optimized for the purpose. This is a
software issue, not a hardware issue. Your wife might not feel so
"cheated upon" if you had sex with a brainless android... There may be
some women today who would feel less cheated on if their husband
visited a prostitute, rather than having a girlfriend on the side...
maybe. I'm stretching here.

>> > if a robot can feel love, can we prohibit marriage / more permanent
>> > relationships?

Why is love the key here anyway? Our society links love and marriage
in a way that is pretty new. Historically, people married for a
variety of reasons, most of which did not really involve love, at
least not at the beginning. If people can adapt to arranged marriages,
surely designed surrogates would be able to do the same.

Also, you can turn off a surrogate when you aren't using it. Go to
sleep now dear... we'll have sex in the "morning"... :-)  I don't
think turning off an AGI is any more dishonorable than sending your
kids to bed at night. Remember, the future is stranger than you think.

> Hey, I heard a story about a guy who wants to marry his sports car! lol
> There is controversy now about gays marrying, and in time it will continue
> regarding artificial intelligences, aliens, and genetically uplifted
> animals.

Stranger than you think... :-)

>> I agree. I'm inclined to give them as many rights as we can up front,
>> so that when we're the laggards, they'll still extend those rights
>> back to us!
>
> A very good point!  I can imagine the time when an android rebukes a fellow
> android by saying, "you are in a relationship with a genetically mainline
> and non-upgraded human?!"  "Yuck!!!"  We humans will have to go
> transhuman/posthuman pretty fast to be worthy partners for the
> androids/artificial intelligences. lol

Yes, if a full partner is where we go with this.

> I was raised Mormon, and I have thought of writing a science fiction/fantasy
> short story about a spirit in the Mormon "pre-mortal life," who finds out
> that instead of going down to Earth to be born to a human woman, he is going
> to be "born" as an artificial intelligence.

Let's start a new thread on this... I have lots of
Mormon/transhumanist/scifi ideas...

>> > i personally believe awareness is equivalent to 'having a soul' and
>> > makes
>> > the difference between machine and 'human'.
>
>
>
>
> But in time that difference will dissolve away.

As we are left in the dust bin of history, sure. :-)

>> Me too, but I am open to the idea that it is perhaps because there is
>> not yet a better alternative. Once a better alternative does exist in
>> the real world, it becomes a trickier proposition. And it goes both
>> ways. Lots of women will trade in their real men for robots too.
>
> I can envision future husbands lovingly (or not so lovingly) saying to their
> wives, "you better behave or I will trade you in for an android model!" lol
> And yes, there will be many women who have been repeatedly burned by men who
> will be headed to the nearest android dealership when they have the
> chance...  Men are often stereotyped as being the ones who prize physical
> beauty in the opposite sex, but I know many women value it just as much.  A
> male android with the features of the typical romantic novel bookcover
> showing the handsome Scotsman will be a big seller!

It will be harder to create an android that will satisfy women,
because their needs are broader. Many men would be fairly satisfied
with a sexbot and a chefbot... forget the rest.

> Yes, the future Bill Gates or Larry Ellison of android companions is
> probably in grade school right now...

I would bet so, probably grade school in Japan though. :-)

Human women are magical to human men because human men are evolved to
think so (and vice-versa). As we unravel the whys and wherefores of
this, I think we can create androids that will be just as attractive
as the real thing.

> I'm dating a very sweet gal right now.  I wonder if she could somehow be an
> android?  Naw...  She probably just has the sweet and loving
> female personality gene!

Good for you John. That is definitely the best thing going today!!!
Tomorrow, who knows?

-Kelly