[ExI] OWS rolling in the Mud

Kevin G Haskell kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com
Mon Nov 14 05:15:45 UTC 2011


Alfio Puglisi replied to Kevin G Haskell, and return reply to Alfio:

Message: 8
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:08:17 +0100
From: Alfio Puglisi <alfio.puglisi at gmail.com>
To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Subject: Re: [ExI] OWS Rolling in the Mud
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       <CAJUeD7hJm-p6T+65Ea2J1mnCfN4MuYmhhXdPmD4rtm1VojvVKg at mail.gmail.com>
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2011/11/12 Kevin G Haskell <kgh1kgh2 at gmail.com>

(Kevin wrote): "> [...] when no Western nation presently practices
Capitalism, but an awful
> Socialist/Capitalist hybrid of one sort of the other, is very misguided.
>
>
> But if that majority of people in the OWS movement in Western nations will
> continue to blame to the wrong parties for this growing mess, then perhaps
> they should at least stop using the all of the products that were produced
> by Capitalism, such as their tents, clothes, most foods, cameras, phones,
> computers, bathrooms, toilet paper, feminine hygiene products, soap,
> shampoo, ink for their signs, the paper they write their messages on,
> private and public transportation, etc.,etc."
>
>
(Alfio's reply): "There is something that puzzles me, if no nation on Earth
practices pure
capitalism (and this is obviously true), but instead "some awful hybrid"
how can the production of all those goods be ascribed to capitalism and not
to something else? How is the partition done, if possible at all?

Alfio"

First, just correct something, I directed my point at Western nations, not
"no nation on Earth."  However, to reply to that, yes, we can fairly say
tha that most nations on earth also have some hybrid of
Socialism/Capitalism, but almost always, the lower income and less freedom
in nations, with few exceptions, is tied to them having more Socialism in
that mix than less. Also to point out, all nations require 'some' Socialism
if one is to regard the rule of law as a bit of Socialism as long as the
Socialism, in the form of laws, are limited, clear transparent, and fairly
applied. In order to allow Capitalism to be function properly, then it is
actually a requirement.  Even in the Founding of United States, and in
present day Hong Kong, this is true. We are far, far away from the type of
that kind of hybrid, but far more toward an impure Socialist/Capitalist mix
that I refer to as "an awful hybrid."

Regarding the rest of your point, let me divest you of the misunderstand
that you seem to share with a fair amount of the OWSers, (but not all of
them,) that the products I mentioned that the OWSers use were somehow still
produced within the "awful hybrid" of Socialism/Capitalism, and therefor,
heavy-handed Socialism must somehow still be acceptable or even a good
thing.  While it is true that these products were produced in the present
hybrid system(s,) it is 'despite' the barriers the massive amounts of
Socialistic barriers that Western government continue to pile on top of the
inventive-productive Capitalist class of people, not 'because' of the
heaven burden of Socialist governing class placed on those Capitalists.

It is the Capitalist class that produced the homes, the jobs, and the
wealth that so many of the people who now find themselves without the
luxuries and benefits, that they had them at all, and it is because of the
Socialist class that they have lost them.  Many people who have lost these
wonders of Capitalism to Socialist policies that prevent and prohibit the
flourishing of productive Capitalism, but the OWSers direct there anger at
those who produced that wealth in the first place, while supporting more of
the policies that actually have caused the problem, and that is the
Socialist class.

The Socialist class produces nothing.  It only steals from the
inventive-productive class, gives to those who are lost, dependent,and
under-educated 'because' of our Socialist public school system, and then
have trained these same people over the course of years in these same
Socialist systems to look at the productive class as all being corrupt,
using Bernie Madoff and Carlo Ponzi and early Capitalist "robber barons" as
examples for them, to attack all of Capitalism, and promote more
Socialism.  These ideas are promoted not only K-12, but through the
University years.

I hope that helps enlighten you as to point I was making.

Kevin
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