[ExI] Obama keen on brain mapping

Eugen Leitl eugen at leitl.org
Sat Apr 6 10:28:28 UTC 2013

On Fri, Apr 05, 2013 at 02:49:51PM -0400, Alan Grimes wrote:

>> No, because we're going to upload you. In your sleep. Without your
>> consent. Because, that's the way we like it. Uh huh. Uh huh.
> What assurance do I have that this is purely a joke? 

I guarantee you it's a joke. But the guarantee is only
valid for me, and probably has an expiration date.
I'm pretty sure I've promised a lot of things in 
the kindergarten that don't make a lot of sense today.

> People who weren't joking have said this to me. 

That's just the point, it takes just one rogue deity 
to ruin your afternoon for good. 

> Furthermore, there are a number of ontological frameworks 
> espoused by uploaders that would morally oblige one to do this.

Don't hold what a last universal ancestor said somewhere in 
a bar, somewhen 3.5 GYrs ago. They were probably drunk, anyway.

>> What's the purpose behind the Sixth Great Extinction? None.
>> It's a side effect of activities of a particular local
>> primate species. No ill intent whatsoever. The result is still
>> pretty impressive, and not in a good way.
> Since then we have extended our sentience and expanded our morality. It  

But what about these who want to be a mushroom? What do you think
furries are going to do with that funky morphological freedom,
once they got that? Beware of the full moon! The werewolves
will be out in full force tonight.

> must be assumed that all actions taken by sentient entities are  
> deliberate and therefore they are morally responsible for them. I have  
> no sympathy for your "forces of history" line of argument.

Then, when will you start going something against that
Anthropocene thing? It would be as futile, but it would be
at least consistent.

>>> What rapid change? How would this "society" thing (whatever that is)
>> Don't blink. 		Too late!
> So you are assuming that uploads will inevitably use their [highly speculative] speedups 

What is so speculative that you can do in ns or ps what biology does
in ms?  

> in such ways, out of carelessness or malice, to quickly impose severe changes on free, sentient, human beings who are not uploaded?

Why did they turn the jungle into a parking lot, and what did
the gorillas do about that?

>>> feel obliged to "keep up with" it? Why not simply allow things to
>> Because it beats going extinct. You can probably relate to that.
> Why should I be at risk of going extinct? Don't you support  

Because gorillas can't live in parking lots.

> morphological freedom and the right of all sentient beings to go on 
> living?

Of course I do, but what about all the other clades?

>>> diffuse out into common usage the way any other meme would. Is there
>> I have no idea what you're talking about.
> I mean that if some randomly selected Amish person neglected to read the  
> news paper, he would never know anything about it. I mean that if I set  

I can assure you even uncontacted tribes will know about it.
Nobody can spam like the gods.

> up a mail filter to block all messages from uploaded people, then I  
> would be free to chart my life course in any way my deviant little heart  
> could desire without ever being affected by them.

Gorillas are unfortunately affected by logging, and cannot
live in parking lots. They're probably not happy about that.

>>> something I really need to know but haven't been told?
>> Yes Alan, you're on your habitual crusade. We get it.
>> Here's some news: nobody cares about you, or me, or this
>> little cybercorner. Collectively, we're stampeding in
>> a particular direction. Our collective trajectory is
>> effectively deterministic, even though individually
>> each animal has no particular interest in going over
>> the cliff.
>> http://www.resilience.org/stories/2008-09-14/net-energy-cliff\
> "We're running out of energy so therefore we should all become uploads  
> so that we can run on processors that consume hundreds of times as much  
> energy as our current embodiments in order to run at massive speed-ups."  
> =P
> How is uploading not perfectly orthogonal to the energy crisis?

The energy cliff was a metaphor illustrating that collectively 
the humanity is out of control and routinely doing some pretty
boneheaded things, like destroying their own life support.
Just because it's called Anthropocene it doesn't mean we're
exempt from the Great Dying.

>>>> The nicer scenarios get the neuroscience roughly right from the start,
>>>> and then show increasingly large animal models - the trend is obvious,
>>>> society has a chance to adapt, and the first uploads will not be
>>>> strongly posthuman.
>>> What is so special about this uploading thing that  society would have
>>> to "adapt"?
>> Alan, you you like the solar constant? How would you like if wouldn't
>> be a constant? I understand most people have issues using a shovel to
>> get your daily air allowance.
> What is the relationship between uploading and the solar constant?

Because the solar output is finite, and pretty soon we'll need all of

> Why would I have a limited air allowance?

Because air liquifies at low temperatures.

> What does a shovel have to do with anything?


>>> I think we need to have a Dialog about this, you know 2-way
>>> communication, where we talk about how this will affect each of us, and
>> Why did you omit this crucial step with all the extinct species in
>> the Anthropocene? Oh, because it was outside your control? Guess what:
>> it's outside of ours, too. So learn to stop worrying, and love the
>> solid state.
> http://www.tubedepot.com/sw-ts-005.html


> So super fast, if not super-intelligent uploaded minds will wipe us all out because, collectively, they are intellectually equivalent to a slime mold?

Why do you think everybody will be super-intelligent? What about super-stupid,
super-tiny, super-fast? Diseases kill more people than sharks do.

>>> what actions might be necessary to preserve our rights and values. A 130
>>> page treatise (which I read, cover to cover) that goes over exactly how
>>> you plan to upload everyone including me and my cat does not count as a
>>> dialog.
>> How do you feel about death?
> Death sux.

We agree!

>> Has your mortality ever offered you a dialog, and a compromise, perhaps?
> How about this compromise:  You go upload and leave me alone -- forever.

I can promise you that (I personally think mountain gorillas are cool,
and should be around indefinitely), but don't hold that against me if somebody
else accidently drops the piano on your head from the helicopter
or some primitive postlifeform eats you inadvertedly. 

> What other compromise do you suggest?

I'd try to become less attached to the stupid mansuit you're wearing.
And in general figure out how to delay the inevitable as long as possible.
That might be possible, actually.

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