[ExI] addiction

Thu Mar 17 16:10:01 UTC 2016

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 7:30 AM, Will Steinberg <steinberg.will at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Yes Keith I know about a speedball.  Regardless of endorphins mediating a
> pleasurable bodily feeling and a contentedness of mind, the correction of
> prediction errors and subsequent ingraining of habits in basal ganglia
> dopaminergic circuits is what modulates the mental hierarchy of needs.
> Honestly most stuff you hear about opioid peptides is pop science.
> Endorphins and enkephalins are much less understood than dopamine.
>
> I swear I know what I'm talking about, partially by this being my field of
> study but more importantly by the fact that I have extremely extensive
> subjective experience on the matter.  I can answer any question you'd have
> on the matter.  Off list, unless this thread can be unarchived.
>
> Sorry no offense to you all but I get real riled up when people without
> experience talk about drugs and addiction.  That's just how I'm wired up.
> OK, just what is your degree and field?  As far as your own use of drugs,
> why would you think that that entitles you to claim any more expertise
> about the science of drugs than someone else?  Re riled:  I am fairly new
> to this list too and I am not the one to chide you about flaming, but I'd
> say that you won't gain any respect or friends by not staying objective.
>

One more thing:  people who say that they can answer any question about
something aren't scientists, or at least aren't being scientific.  It's a
pretty wild claim at this point in psychoneurology, eh?

bill w

>  Mar 17, 2016 12:19 AM, "Keith Henson" <hkeithhenson at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 5:53 PM,  Will Steinberg
>> <steinberg.will at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > It's not endorphins, it's dopamine.  Trust me on this one.
>>
>> It's both.  The ultimate doper's high is cocaine which acts like
>> dopamine and heroin which acts like endorphins.  This mix was at one
>> time called a speedball.
>>
>>  From: William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com>
>>
>> > ?One could speculate that the people who get addicted are either low in
>> > endorphins as a result of their usual lifestyle (or perhaps even
>> > genetically low), or are high in them and the drug or whatever is just a
>> > fantastic, incredible high unattainable any other way.?
>>
>> It's genetic.  Only a minority (5-10%?) of people can be addicted to
>> opiates at all.  The genes involved are not yet understood, but it
>> should not be hard to do given the big data bases like 23andMe.
>>
>> Addition to nicotine is better understood.  I don't think anyone who
>> has a double dose of the D5 version of the dopamine receptor gene who
>> is addicted to nicotine has ever gotten off some form of nicotine.
>>
>> There may be a cross susceptibility between nicotine and cult rewards.
>> The scientologists are well known for their very high rate of smoking.
>>
>> > ?  I was instantly addicted to morphine at age 9 after ear surgery.
>> Have
>> > not felt that good since.  No pain was the very least of it.  Perhaps
>> would
>> > have been satisfied to stay that way.
>>
>> Interesting.  I know a few other people who are that way about opiates.
>>
>> Keith
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