danust2012 at gmail.com
Fri Aug 11 01:25:23 UTC 2017
What about the evidence of crows fashioning wires for use? And of other primates using tools -- where they seem to learn as humans do by watching others?
Sample my latest Kindle book "Sand Trap":
> On Aug 10, 2017, at 5:56 PM, William Flynn Wallace <foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
> spike wrote we may find that most beasts use tools in some way, and
> many of them make tools.
> There is a problem here with interpretation. If a person, aka human, used a tool, he must have learned it somehow, watching, experimenting - aka learning either from others or just from messing around. I think that anyone who has worked on cars has invented a tool, perhaps using two different tools to do a job.
> The examples you gave of tool use were all instincts - aka not learned. The thing about people is their adaptability. We can create tools or use tools for something other than their intended purpose. Animals - aka other animals - tend to do the same thing over and over, and the behavior does not vary much at all from one individual to another.
> For you to show that animals do use tools in much the same way we do, you'll have to show changes in their instinctive behaviors and I don't think you can do that. A spider won't build a different web if the one she has stays empty. And the tool use will have to be relatively unique - unlike other individuals of that species.
> So show me learning to use tools and I'll be happy with that.
> bill w
>> On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 4:43 PM, spike <spike66 at att.net> wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: extropy-chat [mailto:extropy-chat-bounces at lists.extropy.org] On Behalf
>> Of MB
>> Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 1:19 PM
>> To: ExI chat list <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
>> Subject: Re: [ExI] evolution
>> > That would be cool to see. Had I known that, I would have looked
>> > around for a sandy area and arranged for a small arthropod to pass by.
>> Oh spike, where did you grow up???? That's similar to
>> what doodlebugs do, only thay make a pit-trap for the ant
>> to fall into, then they catch them. Surely you recall
>> that from your childhood?
>> Of course! We called them ant lions, but since you mention that particular
>> beast, I have an a fun story from the 1960s. You recall elementary school
>> back in the day perhaps if you are old enough: if the teacher was feeling
>> lazy she (they were all she back then) would put on a film in the old time
>> projector and kick back for half an hour.
>> You might recall plenty of those science films were full of baloney. For
>> instance, the one that comes to mind is an anthropology film which claimed
>> the thing that sets humans apart from all other species was his ability to
>> make tools. They mentioned the notion was challenged by the observation of
>> chimps stripping a twig to make a termite-extraction tool. Afterwards in
>> the discussion, I questioned that too. Plenty of beasts make tools. We
>> could witness one creating a tool and using it right outside the door
>> without having to go on a field trip.
>> My open-minded teacher indulged me and allowed the class to witness, as I
>> stepped out, dug an ant lion out of the ground, poured the sand away to
>> isolate the ant lion, placed him on the sand. We watched him flick sand to
>> create an inverted cone ant trap. There ya go: beast making a tool. Then I
>> took an ant, put her in the trap, ant lion flipped the sand, grabbed the
>> ant: beast using a tool.
>> My teacher didn't even attempt to claim that act didn't count as tool
>> making. The discussion evolved into birds gathering twigs to make a nest.
>> A home is a tool. A spider's web is a tool. The beaver makes a dam which
>> is a tool for backing up water, providing a barrier to trap fish. The orcas
>> work together to create a bubble curtain to herd schools of fish. Orcas are
>> in a whole nuther category: those guys work together to do all kindsa cool
>> Whoever made that film displayed a remarkable lack of imagination. If you
>> look closely enough, we may find that most beasts use tools in some way, and
>> many of them make tools.
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