[ExI] de Waal

William Flynn Wallace foozler83 at gmail.com
Tue Feb 27 16:49:18 UTC 2018

Yes, it's ALWAYS both genetics and environment.  That should go without
saying.  But your claim is much more specific - obey adults.  The one
becomes an adult, you say, and just continue what your parents taught you.
I still say that's like Watson's claim  - very wishful thinking.  Society
is changing - read the Pinker book and see just how many and how much and I
think you will tend to agree with me more.

Given all the ravings Middle East nonJews see, it is amazing that
terrorists number in the dozens rather than the millions - isn't it?  And
so you are stereotyping badly - taking a few thousand (depending on if you
count Boko Haram and such) terrorists and making claims about the rest of
the billion or so followers.

Penalties for nonobservance in Islam are great.  In other religions, small
(that I know of - strange, small sects led by one person omitted).
Conformity is the key to getting along in Islam.  I saw this a few years
ago and cannot find it, but - 60% or higher Iranians do NOT favor ruling a
country by a religious figure.  Hardly a unanimity of opinion supporting
their religion.  How much more would it be if that were an open society?

Genes simple?  Are you crazy?  Do you know (of course you do - you can do
the math) how many interactions are possible among 20k genes, given that
some action can result from one gene, or two, or just about any number?
I'd say figuring out genetics will take a thousand years or more.  And we
are just learning about the role of the gut microbes, which can change our
genes, and of the glial cells and their influence over the neurons, about
which we are just now learning.

We agree in principle - I just think you are taking it more than a bit too
far into the conformity region.  I would like to see the stats on
churchgoers who don't believe much of it, or are questioning the very basis
of their own religion, like those who don't believe in the Original Sin -
which is the *very basis of Christianity. * You have to be saved.  From
what? Original sin.  No Original sin?  No need to be saved.  No need to go
to a church that preaches that.

I can't find a poll on Original Sin, but  lot of what I did read shows that
many people think God is good and would not send babies to Hell for just
being a child of Adam.

I just think there is a lot less conformity, thus less rigid following of
parents and other authorities preachings.

bill w

On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 7:57 PM, John Clark <johnkclark at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 10:12 AM, William Flynn Wallace <
> foozler83 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> ​>* ​*
>> *I am sure you can agree that there are many who go to some church who
>> don't believe a word of it, but don't want to act like a rebel or
>> unbeliever. *
> They go to church but don't believe a word of it? Not a word? I actually
> don't agree, I think that's pretty rare. And those that go to mosque but
> don't believe a word of what the Islamic franchise is pushing are even more
> rare. You don't fly an airliner into a skyscraper unless you strongly
> believe you will get 77 virgins in the afterlife for doing so. Why did they
> believe that was true? Because their mommy and daddy told them it was
> true.And​ 86% of Muslims living in Egypt believe those leaving Islam should
> receive the death penalty, 79% in Afghanistan and 76% in Pakistan believe
> the same thing.  Why do they think that would be a good idea? Because their
> mommy and daddy told them it was a good idea.
> ​> ​
>> *You don't have to posit a genetic tendency to believe what authorities
>> are saying to explain the facts.  It could easily be environmental. *
>> It's both. Genes predispose the young to believe what the adults in their
> environment tell them, so if they are told idiotic things in childhood they
> will tend to believe idiot things in adulthood.
> ​>​
>>  *Ockham.*
> Ockham liked simplicity and our genes are far simpler than our
> environment; you could put the entire human genome on a CD, and that format
> came out about 35 years ago.
>> ​> ​
>> *There is some resistance to persuasion in all of us - contrarianism.  We
>> don't like to feel manipulated.*
> True, and I'm sure none of the 911 hijackers felt manipulated when they
> flew airliners into skyscrapers, if they had they wouldn't have done it.
>> ​>* ​*
>> *What happens when you present conflicting views to a person? *
> ​That depends on how old they are, with each passing year
> conflicting view
> ​s​
>  ​will have less impact. And people never get religious views through
> logic so they can not be disabused of them through logic.
> *​> ​Presenting the other side(s) often knocks the person for a loop - he
>> has no defense or counterarguments.*
> But he ALWAYS has a ironclad counterargument; "logic be damned, the
> reveled WORD OF GOD says I'm right and you're wrong and that's that".
>> ​> ​
>> If your position is that it is genetic, then you have a hard time
>> explaining the world-wide decline in church attendance.
> I'm not saying there is a gene for religion, I'm saying there is a gene
> that predisposes the young to believe what adults tell them. If adults
> don't push religion onto their kids then they probably won't grow up to be
> religious nuts. And church attendance may be in decline, at least in
> Europe, but I don't think mosque attendance is in decline
> John K Clark
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