[ExI] DAOs, Futarchy, and the future of Extropianism

Adrian Tymes atymes at gmail.com
Sun Apr 11 20:59:14 UTC 2021

This proposal is utter bullshit and fails reality check out of the gate, in
the same sense as a proposal that "merely wishing for anti-gravity will
bring about negation of gravity".

A country only meaningfully exists if other, previously existing countries
recognize it.

The attempts to create micronations and microstates have proven, beyond any
reasonable doubt, that land is a fundamental starting requirement to gain
said recognition.

Therefore, any approach that defers obtaining physical territory until well
after establishment as a country will fail.

This is known to such a high degree, that even writing the length of text
of that article is in excess of a worthwhile investigation.

If you want to start a country, get some land (this can be constructed,
such as far out at sea or in space, so long as it's not in territory that
some other major nation claims) and a large number of people (the exact
minimum is debatable, anywhere from 10,000 at the extreme minimum to a more
likely minimum of 1,000,000) willing to physically inhabit that land as
their primary residence.  Any attempt to skimp either of these - say, by
only having 10 or 100 people when the effort tries to get recognition -
will fail.

On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 1:14 PM JF via extropy-chat <
extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:

> Another important detail, it seems while I was writing this, a particular
> crypto writer wrote a compelling piece of information about the idea of a
> "cloud country".
> https://1729.com/how-to-start-a-new-country/
> This seems viable. In short, it amounts to starting decentralized
> organizations to manage budgets to buy "land" for the "cloud country". It
> could be very likely that these enclaves only allow people who are part of
> the community. There's nothing stopping this today.
> As for some of the messages:
> I have some experiences with DAOs, and using a particular system called DAOHaus
> to create MolochDAOs <https://daohaus.club/>, the answer to "how much
> money does it take" is "it's fairly negligible". The smart contract is just
> a system that allows users and mints new tokens based on a vote. Someone
> could put in $10K. Someone could put in $1. Obviously we could, and should,
> give more voting rights to people who put in a lot more money. MolochDAOs
> are also designed to allow people to "burn" their tokens at any point and
> leave. So if you do supply funding and you don't like the direction the
> group is going, by all means leave. The goal is to create an emergent
> organization, so signal dislike and spin off if you would want to.
> To merge this in with the above, I think a feasible first step might be to
> collect some funding to possibly start an online community. I actually
> would really enjoy starting a new forum like a Disqus. From that, maybe we
> could fund renting physical locations for meetings? It seems like all the
> tech movement is heading into Miami, especially in the digital money scene.
> A forum does seem more feasible to help speed up actions.
> We could technically do this now.
> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
> On Sunday, April 11, 2021 9:21 AM, JF via extropy-chat <
> extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org> wrote:
> A few months ago I brought up the idea of creating a DAO like system to
> further the extropian goals. It seemed to garner some interest and I
> figured I would bring it up again since more and more crypto systems on
> Ethereum have started to use Zero-Knowledge Proof technology to bring the
> costs down, making this idea more viable.
> To give some more context to people who may have not been in the space,
> maybe a rough history would suffice.
> A few years ago, the creator of Ethereum, a decentralized smart contract
> system, began talking about the idea of prediction markets. Prediction
> markets are a way for participants to "bet" on specific outcomes of real
> world events. Things like weather, political outcomes, sports, wars, are
> all able to be predicted on. In a high level sense, it's an automated
> market for people to bet on events, but it aggregates the bets to publicly
> produce a probability of the event. Because of this, they become
> "predictive" engines that aggregate information of all market participants.
> Participants with more information are encouraged to take advantage of the
> arbitrage opportunity and "bet more" for the outcome they believe to win,
> which reveal more information.
> Read More: https://augur.net/blog/prediction-markets
> An interesting component was created as well in the form of the first
> DAOs. DAOs are Decentralized Autonomous Organizations, which in the most
> basic sense, are smart contracts which manage funds. They can only do
> actions when collective owners vote on outcomes to release funds, making
> the operation of capital management a decentralized organization operation
> rather than something owned by charter of 5-8 people in a C-level suite.
> Currently, many DAOs operate managing billions in the Ethereum blockchain
> (MakerDAO, Compound, etc.)
> A new concept which was also hypothesized was the idea of a futarchy. A
> futarchy combines the idea of an organization with prediction markets,
> allowing a decentralized group of bettors to make decisions. Since it
> couples prediction markets, the systems are able to aggregate information
> and should over time, allow capital accrual for people that make good
> decisions for the organization.
> Read More: https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/08/21/introduction-futarchy/
> So with this, with ZKSync tech, DAOs and Prediction markets now have
> viable options. Unfortunately this wasn't really available as an option up
> until around the end of last year. Futarchies need a bit more application
> work before a decentralized, scalable option is available, but technically
> is viable.
> With this being said, why aren't we using them? I mean this in a sense of
> the people in this mailing list. I certainly love the discussion, but we
> now have a cheap way to aggregate information and collect funds. We can
> completely run a DAO and actually speed up the actions this group does,
> rather than shooting emails back and forth. Ideas are great, but actions
> are far more tenable.
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