[ExI] India and the periodic table

[efc at swisscows.email]

Hello Adrian,

On Sat, 10 Jun 2023, Adrian Tymes via extropy-chat wrote:

>       So? Let them. As long as they don't interfere with me
> 
> That is precisely the problem: they wish to interfere with other people.

I think, at some level, everyone interfers (or tries to
interfere/manipulate) with at least someone at some level. Since we are
a social species, I'd call this "nature". Then of course, there are
hermits, but I imagine the nr of hermits who are truly self sufficient
and have no need to ever see anyone to be small enough to be ignored.

>       Eventually they will fade away if they reject science
>       and technology.
> 
> In theory.  The concern is short term, while they have not yet faded away.

Ahh, yes, ok, short term view, that changes the equation. I think given
the rest of your email below, that I now understand your position
better.

>       If such a person becomes a dictator, they still cannot control the laws
>       of physics, so eventually they will self destruct or the people will
>       have a revolution and throw them out.
> 
> Given what they have control over, "self destruct" can include starting a nuclear war that many on this list would not survive. 
> Extraordinary measures were taken to prevent this the last time one of them was in charge (and tried to be a dictator).

I have no proof of course, but generally people tend to want to live
over not living, and we've had the capability to destroy ourselves many
times over, and that capability has (and is) in the hands of some
madmen. Yet, we have not done so. For me, this indicates that at the end
of the day, the humam being is a positive being who is rational when it
really matters.

But of course, as it says in every investing commercial, historical
performance does not guarantee future performance, so I understand that
skeptical people who are not wearing my rose tinted (long term) lenses
worry a lot about this.

And I confess that apart from the above I have no proof that
conclusively proves that X won't happen in the future.

>       On a more peaceful level, there is always the option of working around a
>       problem or moving away from the madmen.
> 
> For too many of us, neither of those is an option.  To where, exactly, would one move that would not suffer greatly from a nuclear
> war, even if no nuclear weapons directly impact that area?  Also there's the practical question of, to where would most of us move

I understand, and that is sad. I can only offer platitudes such as "work
together with like minded people", change place of work to a place not
controlled by madmen and criminals.

> where we could continue to be productive and effective, that is neither North America nor Europe, where many of said weapons would
> impact?  The libertarian ideal of "just move away" requires some place to move to, and there is no place on Earth that is beyond
> sufficiently vengeful enforcement, nor will significant amounts of off-Earth habitation become available during the time period when

Depends on the level of nuclear war. There's far north, far  south,
africa, south america. The earth is a big place. Moving to a different
country can be scary, but once done you'll most likely find it to be a
very enriching and rewarding experience. I've lived in 6 countries so
far.

Also, given my personality, I find it counter productive to worry about
and plan for nuclear war. But I do understand that for many this is not
the case, but cannot offer any logically irrefutable proofs or
statements why it could not happen.

So _personally_ nuclear war is nothing I worry about, and _personally_
I've successfully moved to countries that are better aligned with my
values. If everyone does, the decline (in the long term) of the reign of
madmen will go quicker.

>       But it is not about culture, it
>       is about mad people and that has nothing to do with culture.
> 
> Even mad people have their own culture, mad as it is. 

Well, I call that mental sickness and not culture.

Best regards, 
Daniel