[extropy-chat] Re: Public Schools

Mon Jan 19 20:09:32 UTC 2004

Wait a minute. I think we may be on the same page here except for one thing.
Are you saying that public education is compulsory in your state? In
Indiana, home schooling is already an option that a parent can take. I think
there is even a division of the school system that will assist a parent if
they don;t know how to get started. I've known several people who benefitted
from home-schooling.

Also, I never meant to say that home schooling was wrong, bad, or otherwise
inferior to public education. My point was that the public school system
must be there as an option as well since there are many who either can't or
won;t home-school. Then there was the general complaining about how some
parents could improve their children's education by simply being more
involved. The public benefits from the availability of public education in
the long run because many children would not learn enough to even do labor
or count money if they didn't have it available. These children would
forever be on the public dole. I thought you were making a case for
elimination of the public school system. I realize how it has contributed to
the cycle of dependency, but that cycle is there and could only be removed
by a long term reduction in dependency through several generations.

As for paying for it, I would rather pay for public education and have an
option to home school combined with a tax-credit than continue to foot the
bill for highly marked up big screen TVs. I don;t even have one!
Kevin Freels

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Technotranscendence" <neptune at superlink.net>
To: "ExI chat list" <extropy-chat at lists.extropy.org>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 12:34 PM
Subject: [extropy-chat] Re: Public Schools

> On Monday, January 19, 2004 12:20 PM Kevin Freels
> kevinfreels at hotmail.com wrote:
> >> Others pay -- including those who don't
> >> have children and those whose children
> >> are either past school age or who do
> >> not use public schools -- for schools as
> >> well, so this lowers the costs of
> >> parenting when the parents use public
> >> schools.
> >
> > Let's not forget that even those who have
> > no children were once children themselves
> > and most likely benefited from the school
> > system.
>
> First, you don't know for every last person.  Someone who is
> homeschooled or went to private school, e.g., would not fit in the
> above.  Someone who was not schooled at all -- as some foreigners would
> be in the US and some other marginal people -- would also not have
> benefited.
>
> Second, it's questionable what the benefit is, especially since
> schooling where I live is mandatory.  Under such circumstances, one
> can't be forced to repay for a "benefit" one was forced to receive.  The
> economics of such forced benefits, too, often makes them less than
> optimal.  Why?  Any compulsory system is bound to decouple costs and
> benefits -- and this has an impact on quality.  Those forced to use such
> a system are, after all, forced to make a choice they wouldn't
> otherwise, so it's already suboptimal -- at least, ex ante.
>
> Third, let me go along with you and say it is a benefit -- for the
> student.  Then that benefit should be somewhat quantifiable.  After a
> certain period, one would have to say, "That individual paid back for
> what he got out of the system and does owe anymore," no?  Or is this to
> be an unlimited claim on every person?
>
> > Also, it is important to realize the benefit
> > of having an "educated" populations (I use
> > the word educated VERY loosely here).
>
> Clarify that benefit and what you mean exactly by education.  In my
> experience, homeschooled and privately schooled children tend to be much
> smarter, less violent, and more civilized than public school children.
> I don't know if anyone's done a study.  Some might say that's because
> public schools have to take everyone, BUT my experience is with most
> public school children I've been around -- not necessary the dregs and
> delinquents.  Even just on that level, I noticed marked differences.  (I
> admit, I've only met a few homeschooled children, so my "sample" is much
> smaller and probably not as telling.)
>
> > It is a shame that more parents simply
> > don't get even slightly involved in their
> > children's education.
>
> It's a shame so many people have children who do not want to take proper
> care of them but look for the state to do that.
>
> > The resource is there, paid for by everyone,
> > and yet many parents just don't seem to give
> > a damn! Most of them are like this because
> > of how their parents were. It's a vicious
> > cycle of stupidity!
>
> Continuing mandatory public education only reinforces the cycle.
>
> > Sorry for the slight venting. This touches
> > rather close to home. My children go to a
> > public school. They are from a previous
> > marriage and she had custody. They are
> > 8 and 7 yr old girls. Their mother is a
> > meth dealer and could hardly pay attention.
> > The girls were getting D's and F's in
> > science and math (N's for the yoiunger
> > girl). They went to schools in crappy clothes
> > with holes in them even though I paid $207
> > per WEEK in child support!
>
> I can understand your frustration, but this seems to more a problem with
> child custody laws than anything else.
>
> > She was finally busted for Meth in November
> > with the kids in the house. I finally received
> > custody of the girls. They were such a mess!
> > Now they have never been happier. Their
> > counselor called me the other day and
> > informed me that if they just keep doing what
> > they have been doing since they moved here,
> > they will get A's in every subject! All they
> > needed was a little homework help, and
> > some concern for their education. I think the
> > real difference is that I care. Nothing more.
> > Mom didn't care, so why should they? They
> > prefer living here and Dad cares about their
> > education, so they do too!
>
> Makes sense to me.
>
> > Anyways, I really don;t think our educational
> > system is all that bad. Yes, it could be better,
> > but it can only be as good as the people that
> > are in it.  I don't know the number, but I would
> > assume that hundreds of thousands are
> > involved in the educational system from the
> > administrative level down. The odds are that
> > a portion of these people are idiots.( There
> > must be a lot of idiots in the public school
> > system.) This would be offset if parents simply
> > gave a shit about their kids.
>
> It would help if those of us who don't like or want the public education
> system weren't forced to pay for it or send our children to it.  The
> problem is not that the system is run by evil inhuman monsters.  The
> problem is instead that the system rests on compulsion both for funding
> and for enrollment.  Remove the compulsion is all I ask...
>
> Cheers!
>
> Dan
>   See "The Hills of Rendome" at:
> http://uweb.superlink.net/neptune/Rendome.html
>
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