[extropy-chat] Memetic data point

[Russell Wallace]

Had this conversation on AIM today, posting it with permission as a data
point since I think the concerns the other person raised are likely to be
quite representative of the general population. (I'm rw271828 - was a
latecomer to AIM, so all possible user names that didn't have strings of
digits in them were already taken :P)

[16:10] Phadin0: Speaking of AI, a question.
[16:10] Phadin0: Do you think it could be concievably possible to copy a
person's memories and personality... brain data, in other words, into
computer data... basicly download a persons brain into a computer?
[16:11] rw271828: "Upload" is the term normally used, and yes indeed, it's
one of the main hoped-for applications of advanced nanotechnology when we
invent it.
[16:12] Phadin0: You think that person would then be able to act and think
and BE the computer, or the nanotech, or whatever?
[16:12] Phadin0: It seems kinda scary to me, as it seems akin to immortality
for whoever is lucky or rich enough to have such a proceedure, and thats the
last thing we need.
[16:13] rw271828: Yes. And yes, it would be a form of immortality. - What,
you want to die?
[16:14] Phadin0: I think that such a concept could easily go to people's
heads.
[16:14] rw271828: Lots of things go to people's heads, not sure how that's
an argument for death over continued life?
[16:16] Phadin0: Well, I doubt that when it comes out it would be easily
accessable to general public, so who gets it first?  the rich?  the leaders
of the nations? Why?  And what would they do while they live on and others
die around them?  Would they let everyone get such immortality, or would
they want it for themselves only?
[16:17] rw271828: Remember that truly effective medical treatment is cheap.
Consider for example the astronomical cost of keeping a polio victim
not-dead for a year in an iron lung, with the pocket change cost of polio
vaccine.
[16:18] rw271828: The cost of uploading would likely quickly come down to
considerably _less_ than the cost of spending a couple of years slowly dying
in a nursing home, which is the alternative that people use nowadays.
[16:21] Phadin0: Perhaps, but again, are they worthy enough to be preserved
forever?  Who makes such a determination, or can anyone, even those with
criminal records, gain this immortality?  What about someone who is
homeless, and has had no beneficial contribution to society?  Whats the
cutoff for who's allowed to have this procedure?
[16:22] rw271828: Are they worthy enough to get penicillin to save their
lives when they have pneumonia? Who makes such a determination, or can
anyone, even those with criminal records, gain this life? What about someone
who is homeless, and has had no beneficial contribution to society?  Whats
the cutoff for who's allowed to have this procedure?
[16:24] Phadin0: Thats the thing Russ, there are people who would argue no
to those questions, adn thats just to presreve life, not give eternal life.
You know, the doctor who treated John Wilks Booth after he assassinated
President Lincoln, was later brought up on charges of Treason.
[16:25] rw271828: Would you conclude from that that it was wrong to invent
penicillin? Or would you conclude instead that it's good that we have
penicillin, and we need to separately address the question of how to get it
to people who need it, even if they don't have a lot of money?
[16:26] Phadin0: I don't recall if he was convicted, don't think he was, but
the fact is the argument was there, that the man should not have gotten
medical treatment.
[16:27] Phadin0: I just think the impact of eternal life as a medical
proceedure could be far more reaching then pennicilian.
[16:27] Phadin0: There is a saying that there are only two sure things in
life, death and taxes.
[16:28] Phadin0: The fact that you could conquor death would have enormous
consequences.
[16:29] rw271828: Yes, like not dying! :) Would you not agree that's a good
consequence?
[16:30] Phadin0: Hmm... how about this scenario... Fidel Castro.  One of the
things US forieng policy regarding Cuba is depending on is that he WILL
die.... eventually... though he's been lasting a really really long time, it
will happen.
[16:31] Phadin0: It's something the last... 8 presidents or so.... have been
depending on, hoping would happen some time.
[16:31] Phadin0: It hasn't yet... but what if never could... what if he
gained your immortality?
[16:31] Phadin0: He could rule Cuba indeffinately.
[16:32] rw271828: Right now, more than fifty million people are dying per
year. That's a Holocaust every couple of months. _Every_ couple of months.
Are you suggesting we should want that to continue just for the sake of
getting rid of some guy in Cuba?
[16:33] Phadin0: Do you think he gives a damn about the 50 million dying
every few months?  He wouldn't care.. heck, he'd probably want his people
not maintain their mortality so no one could gather up enough support over
the years to challenge him.
[16:33] Phadin0: And being in charge, he'd make sure they didn't have access
to this proceedure.
[16:34] rw271828: That's a good argument against dictatorship as a form of
government, yes!
[16:34] Phadin0: Yes... and an immortal dictator would be even worse.
[16:34] rw271828: Look, are you saying you think uploading should be banned?
[16:36] Phadin0: I think the world is not in a state where it's ready for it
at this time.  Sure, in countries like America, and much of Europe, we
are... but many other countries are still in a state of morality where the
power of immortality would be corrupted by those in charge.  I think that it
would be nice, one day, to be able to release such an ability... but I don't
forsee it as being possible within my lifetime wihtout seeing it also
corrupted by those in power in some areas of the world.
[16:37] rw271828: So you'd ideally like it to be available, but only in
democracies, so the likes of Castro and wotsisname in North Korea don't get
to use it to hold onto power indefinitely?
[16:39] Phadin0: Even in democracies and other more advanced forms of
government, there might still be complications... and there are those
outside the government.  I shudder to think what would happen if Osama Bin
Laden became immortal... on the other hand, that might be a good thing.
Hard to martyr yourself when you can't die.
[16:39] rw271828: Yep. - Well, it won't be available for a long time yet;
one can hope the trend of replacing dictatorship with democracy of recent
decades will have spread further by then...
[16:40] Phadin0: Indeed, and hopefully the hatred of peoples will also
subside.  When it does come, there will likely be quite a storm of debate
around it, but in the end, reality shifts.  It can happen.
[16:40] rw271828: One very important thing to bear in mind, though:
Nanotechnology, the prerequisite for uploading, is also the prerequisite for
space colonization. The real problem with oppressive governments is when
there's nowhere to go. It doesn't matter so much if a tyrant wants to
continue ruling one little corner of one little planet indefinitely, if
people can just leave him to it and go somewhere else.
[16:41] Phadin0: Thats part of the problem though, countries like Cuba
forbid their citizens from leaving.  Cubans are always trying to make
illegal crossings over to America to escape from that country, and not all
of them make it.
[16:42] Phadin0: They have a place to go, America would take them if they
make it over to our land... but that doesn't mean they can.
[16:43] Phadin0: It's actually by law that if they get found by the coast
guard while still on the water, they must be returned to cuba, but if they
make it onto american soil, they can stay in our country.
[16:43] Phadin0: Anyway, lunch time.... that was a fun little debate, but I
want food, so I'll be back in a while.
[16:43] rw271828: wait...
[16:44] rw271828: One question before you go...
[16:44] rw271828: I'm on a couple of mailing lists where technophiles
discuss this sort of topic, I think this'd be a useful example of the
concerns people have about the use of such technology... would it be okay if
I CC this exchange to the mailing list as a data point?
[17:05] Phadin0: Sure, go ahead.
[17:15] rw271828: Thanks!
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