[ExI] Bishop warns of no-go zones for non-Muslims - Telegraph

[hkhenson]

At 08:33 AM 1/6/2008, Dagon wrote:

snip

>Hirsi is just a well-integrated opportunist immigrant using whatever 
>opportunity
>comes her way.
>
>Hirsi Ali agitated against a small fringe of Islam, a lunatic 
>minority of conservative
>nuts. Even though I am an avowed atheist, living in densely 
>populated west of the
>netherlands, the idea that there is any serious problem is nonsense. The only
>problem in the netherlands is this area is insufficient integration 
>of the older
>immigrants, racism in the workplace, weak politicians and politicians actively
>exploiting the issue.

The fact that the politicians *can* exploit the issue indicates that 
there is some degree of underlying social issue.  It would be worth 
considering what conditions create this situation.  It would also be 
interesting to consider what conditions would allow a small fringe of 
Islam to gain a lot of influence.  In an evolutionary psychology 
context of course.

>Immigrant kids growing up in the netherlands are so completely 
>westernized that
>whenever they visit Turkey or Marocco on vacations the local spit on them, and
>label them TRAITORS.
>
>Sure Islam is a viotriolic, reactive force in international 
>politics. However in the
>Netherlands Islam is the liferaft of a bunch of completely backward 
>economic losers.
>Second generation immigrant kids in the netherlands have a choice of 
>three extremes:
>spend a life in mental health care, selfmedicate on drugs or become a muslim.
>These are completely pathetic people and they have nowhere to go. To them
>being a despised loser underclass in western europe is still far 
>better than having
>to live in the third world - a third world that wouldn't even accept 
>them anymore
>even if they tried.

In this regard it is worth considering the selection trajectory of 
different ethnic groups in the last 20 generations.  While there are 
certainly overlaps, the distribution of psychological traits leading 
to economic success is almost certainly different for different 
ethnic groups and likely reflects the strong genetic selection that 
went on when there was a fairly stable population and the wealthy had 
the lion's share of the surviving children in Western 
Europe.  Whatever the psychological traits are for becoming economic 
winners, if they were heritable, then 20 generations of this kind of 
selective survival should certainly make them a lot more common.

>This problem is categorically unsolvable through polemization or 
>tighter laws. You can
>not terrorize immigrants back to their own country. You cannot 
>forcibly inject integration
>into them. You cannot un-muslimize them. Without that last bit of 
>ideology they'd
>desintegrate in a world they can barely understand.

>Breaking immigrants simply will not happen, and the only alternative 
>is becoming a far
>right dictatorship that breaks all international rules and deports 
>"undesirables". We all
>know what the price of that is.

It has happened.  It can happen again.  What you need to be 
considering is what are the conditions that trip such events and what 
can be done at a deep level to keep such conditions from 
happening.  If you have been following my efforts, I claim to know 
what the underlying problem is and even how it can be solved.  (Short 
term, that is pre singularity, one thing that would do it is a 
project to solve the carbon and energy problems.  Longer term it is 
not likely to matter since physical state humans will most likely be 
entirely gone by the end of this century.)

>So the only solution is, for the US with tides of hispanic and 
>oriental people flooding
>in, or in europe, with largely ignored and low-opportunity 
>immigrants we have (and
>not many coming in) is integration, a slow, painful and arduous 
>process lasting
>probably 2-3 generations. Live with it. Force them to learn the 
>language. Give them a
>chance at making a living. Put them in prison when they fuck up. 
>Slowly you will
>get results and by 2050 this problem will be a footnote in history.

Given an economy rising faster than the population I agree with you, 
this would probably work.  But given a contracting economy, like what 
happened prior to last big mess in Europe, I would not be the least 
surprised to see a replay.

>The rhetoric that Europe is being taken over is obviously complete 
>nonsence. There
>will never be a real islamic majority anywhere in Europe the next 
>century. Islam is
>a marginalized fringe phenomenon and will remain so, even if we ignored it.

That's very likely true.  Islamic minorities may cause serious problems though.

>Preaching that Islam is taking over the world is a flimsy excuse, a 
>smokescreen to
>push for quite other political ideals - Ideals I like even less than Islam.

The fact that people *can* push "other political ideals" and not be 
laughed at is a bad sign.  20 years ago I noted that downturns in the 
US economy were mirrored by upturns in neo nazi activity.  At the 
time I had no idea of why, but I do now.

I can say more, but you might want to read my last major paper first.

Keith