[ExI] Bishop warns of no-go zones for non-Muslims - Telegraph

[Dagon Gmail]

> >Hirsi is just a well-integrated opportunist immigrant using whatever
> >opportunity
> >comes her way.
> >
> >Hirsi Ali agitated against a small fringe of Islam, a lunatic
> >minority of conservative
> >nuts. Even though I am an avowed atheist, living in densely
> >populated west of the
> >netherlands, the idea that there is any serious problem is nonsense. The
> only
> >problem in the netherlands is this area is insufficient integration
> >of the older
> >immigrants, racism in the workplace, weak politicians and politicians
> actively
> >exploiting the issue.
>
> The fact that the politicians *can* exploit the issue indicates that
> there is some degree of underlying social issue.  It would be worth
> considering what conditions create this situation.  It would also be
> interesting to consider what conditions would allow a small fringe of
> Islam to gain a lot of influence.  In an evolutionary psychology
> context of course.
>

I do agree that there is a market of dissatisfaction meeting annoyance.
However I am
somwhat of the persuasion there is a demographic of people that will be
annoyed no
matter what happens - and more annoyed if they make less money and
experience more
social distress. So "decent" politics does their best to maximize a steady
income and
peaceful living conditions, whereas it can be plausibly argued "bad"
politics has much
to profit from maintaining "excuses/scapegoats" in the form of troubled
underclasses.
Islam fits that niche at the moment and I am positive this will prove a
footnote causing
a good measure of collective shame in the long run.

Islam is associated with arabic people and languages. Arabic cultures have
different
looks and ideas of esthetics. I don't call arabs or arabic people by default
ugly; they
just play less into the hyperinflated ideals of sexualization and commercial
aesthetics
as we have come to do in the west. Compared with indonesian immigrants we
had in the
netherlands, this makes it objectively easier to "just don't like muslims".
That is a
developmental reason that largely plays into xenophobia. Burqa's are hideous
fashion
accessories and instill universal resentment. The dutch will quickly imagine
muslims
breeding on and on, retaining their own values and not mixing with dutch
values. People
on both sides regard each other with consistent revulsion. Absolutely, when
I walk into a
tram over here and there is a scattering of muslim women seated here and
there (all with
headscarves) I am sure to have absolutely zero contact with them - and I am
clearly
a progressive individual. The only contact I have with muslims is a casual
friendly chat
in the supermarket.

>Immigrant kids growing up in the netherlands are so completely
> >westernized that
> >whenever they visit Turkey or Marocco on vacations the local spit on
> them, and
> >label them TRAITORS.
> >
> >Sure Islam is a viotriolic, reactive force in international
> >politics. However in the
> >Netherlands Islam is the liferaft of a bunch of completely backward
> >economic losers.
> >Second generation immigrant kids in the netherlands have a choice of
> >three extremes:
> >spend a life in mental health care, selfmedicate on drugs or become a
> muslim.
> >These are completely pathetic people and they have nowhere to go. To them
> >being a despised loser underclass in western europe is still far
> >better than having
> >to live in the third world - a third world that wouldn't even accept
> >them anymore
> >even if they tried.
>
> In this regard it is worth considering the selection trajectory of
> different ethnic groups in the last 20 generations.  While there are
> certainly overlaps, the distribution of psychological traits leading
> to economic success is almost certainly different for different
> ethnic groups and likely reflects the strong genetic selection that
> went on when there was a fairly stable population and the wealthy had
> the lion's share of the surviving children in Western
> Europe.  Whatever the psychological traits are for becoming economic
> winners, if they were heritable, then 20 generations of this kind of
> selective survival should certainly make them a lot more common.
>

Can I add a consideration? I personally have this hypothesis that humans,
homo
sapiens in general, as compared with strains of earlier hominids, is an
innately
genocidal species. Humans are geneticly racist. Add that assumption to the
mix
and you can see a genetic predisposition quickly being led into a vicious
cycle
by cultural memes.

If there indeed is a genetic basis for easier accrueing wealth - some human
demographics are predisposed towards poverty - then we are in trouble. The
winners
in such a competition will never concede parting with their winnings - they
will think
they won fair and squarely - whereas the losers will never accept having
lost for
being innately "less" - they will resort to mean tactics to get even.
Wouldn't you?

>This problem is categorically unsolvable through polemization or
> >tighter laws. You can
> >not terrorize immigrants back to their own country. You cannot
> >forcibly inject integration
> >into them. You cannot un-muslimize them. Without that last bit of
> >ideology they'd
> >desintegrate in a world they can barely understand.
>
> >Breaking immigrants simply will not happen, and the only alternative
> >is becoming a far
> >right dictatorship that breaks all international rules and deports
> >"undesirables". We all
> >know what the price of that is.
>
> It has happened.  It can happen again.  What you need to be
> considering is what are the conditions that trip such events and what
> can be done at a deep level to keep such conditions from
> happening.  If you have been following my efforts, I claim to know
> what the underlying problem is and even how it can be solved.  (Short
> term, that is pre singularity, one thing that would do it is a
> project to solve the carbon and energy problems.  Longer term it is
> not likely to matter since physical state humans will most likely be
> entirely gone by the end of this century.)
>

That's what worries me. We inhabit a culture of overconsumption, largely
immoral modes of resource aquisition, an infrastructure of military
exploitation
and downright corrupt governmental styles. In the foreseeable future I
anticipate
severe disruptions when oil (and other resources) become depleted or
steadily
more expensive. In the longer run these problems will be aggravated by
the bizarre population densities in some parts of the world - causing
immigration,
meme/culture shock, disparities in wealth, crime... I am neither fully
convinced
the onset of cheap nanotech, biomedical treatments, longevity, space
exploration,
cheapening solar, robotics, or artificial intelligence will instantly
contribute to
solving the issues, or solving them very fast. In the long run it may very
well
be an ultra rich upper class will attain an unchallengeable elite status and
then
proceed to reserve posthuman devices exclusively for the ruling class.


> >So the only solution is, for the US with tides of hispanic and
> >oriental people flooding
> >in, or in europe, with largely ignored and low-opportunity
> >immigrants we have (and
> >not many coming in) is integration, a slow, painful and arduous
> >process lasting
> >probably 2-3 generations. Live with it. Force them to learn the
> >language. Give them a
> >chance at making a living. Put them in prison when they fuck up.
> >Slowly you will
> >get results and by 2050 this problem will be a footnote in history.
>
> Given an economy rising faster than the population I agree with you,
> this would probably work.  But given a contracting economy, like what
> happened prior to last big mess in Europe, I would not be the least
> surprised to see a replay.
>

I agree there is indeed potential that fundamentally immoral groups may
exploit the actions of a small minority of sociopathic/nihilist extremes in
the
immigrant (marginalized) population (and do not discount non muslims in that

equasion - crime may grow to be worse than terror) and proceed to take
steps to forcibly emigrate them, or actually try and exterminate them.
Concentration camps would be a lot easier to implement now than in the
1940s.


> >The rhetoric that Europe is being taken over is obviously complete
> >nonsence. There
> >will never be a real islamic majority anywhere in Europe the next
> >century. Islam is
> >a marginalized fringe phenomenon and will remain so, even if we ignored
> it.
>
> That's very likely true. Islamic minorities may cause serious problems
> though.
>

I am more concerned with nihilist african gangs. Conditions in some places
in
africa are becoming so desperate it may trigger criminal elements far malign
than anything produced in the middle east. You ever seen something as
heinous
as largescale child soldiers? That is happening in africa on a scale seen
nowhere
in the middle east. The Party of God in central africa are christians in
name, but
something positively satanic (iblitic?) in reality. Once groups like these
mix their
inhumanity with advanced near-singularity tech you could be megadeath on a
regularity approaching fox news reports on paris hilton.


> >Preaching that Islam is taking over the world is a flimsy excuse, a
> >smokescreen to
> >push for quite other political ideals - Ideals I like even less than
> Islam.
>
> The fact that people *can* push "other political ideals" and not be
> laughed at is a bad sign.  20 years ago I noted that downturns in the
> US economy were mirrored by upturns in neo nazi activity.  At the
> time I had no idea of why, but I do now.


Yes it is. I call these phenomenon "poverty cultures". The party of god  in
beyruth may have more in common with current supporters of Bush,
Nashi-fanatics in Russia or fascists in Italy or Germany mid last century
than
any of these would care to appreciate. I label all of these psychotic
states of human cognitive dissonance created by and actively perpetuating
endemic poverty. These memes loathe affluence as much as roaches
loathe sunlight.


> I can say more, but you might want to read my last major paper first.


I'll do the google.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.extropy.org/pipermail/extropy-chat/attachments/20080107/176ce8a3/attachment.html>