[ExI] are all cultures equivalent?.

[Stathis Papaioannou]

2009/4/17 painlord2k at libero.it <painlord2k at libero.it>:

> Christianity changed the attitude about manual labour.
> This is, for what I know, very different from the other major religions.
> The attitude to manual labour changed because Jesus was a carpenter so it
> would be impossible to disparage his work.
> In Christianity, the manual labour is a way of salvation. Maybe not the
> preferred, but a way.

That's probably one of the strangest Christian apologetics that I've heard.

>> I don't disagree that Islam is ridiculous; it just isn't any more
>> ridiculous or intrinsically evil than most other religions, like
>> Christianity.
>
> That you can not or want not see the differences will not change the fact
> that there are differences between the major religions.
> From where do you think come the "created equal with innate rights"?

Certainly not from Christianity.

>> It is *secularism* that has made the Christian world a
>> nicer place, and secularism will eventually make the Islamic world a
>> better place also. Liberal Muslims will turn around and say, like
>> liberal Jews and Christians, that God didn't really mean it when he
>> said that you have to stone adulterers and Sabbath-breakers.
>
> But, secularism is a feature of Christianity, like it or not, from the
> starting point. The Caesar / God thing. The other religions never did this
> distinction.

As far as I'm aware all the nations in Europe took on Christianity as
the official state religion, with "secular" laws reflecting Biblical
laws, eg. laws regarding marriage, blasphemy and sexuality. It was
certainly not OK for the king to convert to Islam, for example, on the
grounds that church and state were separate. The problem with modern
Islamic theocracies is, as Stefano and John have alluded to, that they
take their religion seriously - as seriously as mediaeval Christian
states did. But modern Islamic states such as Turkey, Malaysia and
Indonesia are about as secular as many Christian states.

> Muslims can not do what you say and call themselves Muslims. This because
> their founder not only talk the talk but walk the walk.

It's the same with Christian fundamentalists who claim you can't
really be a Christian unless you accept every word in the Bible as
literal truth. But most Christians accept that at least some of the
Bible is metaphor, or reflects the times in which it was written
rather than stating eternal truths, or some other rationalisation that
allows them to live modern life without doing a dozen things a day
that would send them to Hell.

> Where Jesus told "Who is without sin launch the first stone" and them told
> the adulterers "Go and don't sin any more", Mohammed killed the adulterer
> (male) that confessed to him his sin (he ignored him three times, then he
> killed him).
>
> Than, try to explain how Allah / Mohammed don't really mean it.

Most Jews don't agree these days that you should be killed for
adultery, even though God clearly says in the Bible that you should.
It is also clear that adultery is a sin in Islam but it is not so
clear what the punishment in this life or the hereafter should be.
Here are some quotes from various authorities taken from an Islamic
website. But in any case, you need to keep in mind that until recently
sodomy attracted the death penalty in many Christian countries.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503548032

"Allah says in the Qur’an, (And come not near unto adultery. Lo! it is
an abomination and an evil way) (Al-Isra’ 17: 32).

(And the servants of the Beneficent) are those who do not invoke
another god with Allah, and who do not…commit fornication/adultery,
for whoever does that shall receive the penalty; for him shall the
torment be doubled on the day of resurrection, and therein he shall
abide forever, disgraced, save him who repents and believes and does
good works; those, Allah shall change their misdeeds into good works.
And Allah is Forgiving, Compassionate) (Al-Furqan: 68-70).

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever
guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him
Paradise” (Al-Bukhari).

Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, “No one commits
adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious
unto Allah than such an evil act!” In another version, it is stated,
“When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond
that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his
repentance” (Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa’i and others).

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) further said: “[Under
Islamic laws in an Islamic state] It is not lawful to shed the blood
of a Muslim except for one of three sins: a married person committing
fornication, and in just retribution for premeditated murder, and [for
sin of treason involving] a person renouncing Islam, and thus leaving
the community [to join the enemy camp in order to wage war against the
faithful].” (Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, Tirmidhi, and An-Nasa’i)

During his ascension, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)
was escorted by Jibreel and shown different types of punishments meted
out to those guilty of various major offenses. While recounting the
various scenes shown to him, he said, “Then Jibreel took me and we
passed by a group of people with terribly inflated bodies emitting
worst foul smells just like that of open sewers; when I enquired who
they were, he replied, ‘These are those who commit adultery!’” (Ibn
Khuzaymah)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said: “Faith is like a
shirt that Allah places on those He chooses; but whoever commits
adultery his shirt will be taken off from him; if he were to repent
sincerely, Allah will place it back on him.” (Al-Bayhaqi)

“There are three types of sinners that Allah will not speak to on the
Day of Resurrection; neither He will purify them nor will He even look
at them; rather they will suffer severe punishment: an older person
who commits adultery, a king or ruler who lies to his subjects, and a
poor person who acts arrogantly!” (Muslim and An-Nasa’i)

“When adultery becomes rampant in a nation Allah will expose them to
His chastisement.” (Abu Ya`la)

“When promiscuous behavior becomes rampant in a nation, Allah will
send upon them such (strange) diseases that their own ancestors never
heard of.” (At-Tabarani)

“There are seven categories of people who will be granted protection
under the shade of Allah on the Day when there is no other shade;…
among them is a young person who is seduced by a woman of great beauty
and wealth and yet he rejected her advances saying ‘I fear Allah!’”
(Al-Bukhari and Muslim)

The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “O mankind! Beware
of fornication/adultery for it entails six dire consequences: three of
them relating to this world and three to the next world. As for the
three that are related to this world, they are the following: it
removes the glow of one’s face, brings poverty, and reduces the
life-span. As for its dire consequences in the next world they are: it
brings down the wrath of Allah upon the person, subjects him to
terrible reckoning, and finally casts him in hell-fire” (Al-Bayhaqi).




-- 
Stathis Papaioannou