[ExI] The Death Toll Imbalance in the Mideast War (Was: Mary Magdelene?/was Re: Iran's plan for their gay population)

John Grigg possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com
Mon Jun 8 05:57:05 UTC 2009

Ironically, as I write this a friend is watching "Three Kings."

On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 2:40 PM, Jeff Davis <jrd1415 at gmail.com> wrote:

> 2009/6/6 John Grigg <possiblepaths2050 at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 8:16 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
> > America has killed far more Muslims in the past decade than the Muslims
> have
> > killed Americans, and this isn't even a cause for remorse, the usual
> > justification being that they either deserved it or got in the way.
> >>>>
> >
> > Do you feel that "not enough" Americans have died in the Mideast war??
> How
> > many more will it take for you to feel parity has been achieved??  Please
> > let me know...

> Jeff Davis wrote:
> One million Iraqi dead in an illegal invasion,... let's see, out of
> twenty-five million,...that's four percent of the population.  So, if
> the US population is three hundred million, then four percent of that
> is twelve million.  So, to answer John's (rhetorical and profoundly
> stupid, manipulative, and biased) question -- (actually, it was John's
> lame attempt to box Stathis in, since, no one who isn't "with the
> terrorists" is "allowed" to advocate the killing of Americans) -- but,
> wrongo bongo again -- on the basis of numerical equivalence then, the
> "terrorists" (Iraqis, Afghans, Pakistanis, Taliban of whatever stripe,
> al Quaeda, oh hell!, let's just say Muslims the world over and be done
> with it) have a get-out-of-jail-free card for the killing of
> 11,992,000 Americans.
> Please check my math.


Okay, it was a loaded rhetorical comment but I was rightfully (in my
view) angry.  But I really don't think your above response was in good
taste, to say the least.

> > Americans (even those in uniform) tend to feel very sad about innocents
> > getting killed due to the fighting...

Jeff Davis wrote:

> Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.  Please please stop. you're killing me.
>  Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

What??  You think the bulk of American soldiers in Iraq are like the ancient
Romans or Assyrians, in terms of their conduct as occupiers?  You
really have a low opinion of your own nation's servicemen and women.  You
seem to consider this is a big joke.  Perhaps you should have built your
dream home somewhere in Europe...

> > And the Iraqi people have scratched
> > their heads in amazement as American troops accused of war crimes
> have (at
> > least sometimes) been tried for their wrongdoing and convicted.

> Jeff Davis wrote:
> Hahahahahahahahaha.  Oh god this is good.   Hahahahahahahaha.  And
> that pathetical parenthetical,... oh god that's sweet.
> Hahahahahahaha.

I saw an ABC News special where they interviewed very surprised Iraqi's, as
they viewed on television U.S. soldiers being brought up on charges for
various crimes.  Or do you not believe anything you see on television?  Your
responses to my post are mostly "hahahahahaha" and not much of a real

>                                 <snip>
> > Afghanistan was a Taliban stronghold

Jeff Davis wrote:

> Which makes it all okay, right?   The Taliban weren't "our" enemy
> until the Bush cabal needed someone to shoot at so as to distract
> Americans from noticing how Osama got away.

The Taliban needed to be dealt with, even if they were a monster we had
initially nurtured to get Russia out of Afghanistan.  Yes, Osama got away
and it pains me that we have largely let him and others hide out in Pakistan
because we don't want to rock the boat there (after all, they have nukes and
we don't want to destabilize the gov't and have the Muslim fundamentalists
take over).

> > and it was only a matter
> > of time before Iraq developed strong ties with the major terrorist
> > organizations and became a major supporter of them.

> Jeff Davis wrote:
> Made up out of whole Neocon cloth.

Painlord did a good job of buttressing my claim here.  Jeff, I feel like you
are channeling Al Franken! lol

> >  I just wish Pres. Bush
> > had not lied to start a war that actually needed to be carried out,
> Yeah, right!  If he had just gone to the American people and said ,
> "The Israelis have put in a order for the American military to take
> out Saddam and make the mideast safe for Israel.  They want Americans
> to die for the jews (there was a Holocaust remember, so that makes it
> okay) and for American taxpayers to foot the bill.  Emper... er, Vice
> President Cheney wants Iraqi oil for his pals at Halliburton, the
> military industrial complex wants the business, and we've got a
> buttload of new generals in the Army and Marines just itchin' to show
> their stuff, get some more stars, and maybe get a shot at runnin' for
> president some day soon on the Republican ticket.  What say, America,
> are you ready to rumble?!!"
> Americans would have jumped at the chance.  I can't for the life of me
> figure why he thought he had to lie about it!!!  Fuck the UN charter.

America was itching for some WWII style payback after 9-11 and Iraq was an
easier target than Pakistan.  Saddam  already had created so much bad blood
with the U.S. due to the first Gulf War.  And his well known reputation for
terrorizing his own population, raping & sometimes  even murdering women
that caught his eye, made him a juicy bad guy straight out of Hollywood
central casting.  He actually held up Josef Stalin as his personal ideal.

you wrote:
>They want Americans to die for the jews (there was a >Holocaust remember,
so that makes it okay)

I think you buy way too much into "the Jews got us to do it conspiracy!"

At least according to one source, Iran was Israel's nation of choice to be
invaded by us...


> > But ask yourself, how would Russia or China behave if they alone had the
> > combined economic, technological and military power that the U.S.
> > possesses?  I shudder at the very thought...

Jeff Davis wrote:

> Because, twenty years after the fall of the Soviet Union your brain is
> still polluted with all that anti-communist bullshit.  Here's what you
> do.  Rip the cord from some unused appliance.  Cut it to length -- a
> foot less than your height -- strip the ends and tape them to your
> temples.  Now lie on the floor directly opposite an electrical outlet
> on the wall.  Place your feet one on either side of the outlet, and
> then plug 'er in. You've heard of colon cleansing?, well, I call this
> Jeff's DIY ES brain cleansing(you're gonna  get a colon cleansing as
> well, at no extra charge, but that's not the main deal, just icing on
> the cake).  Be sure that the cord is shorter than you are (to insure
> that when your back arches and your legs straighten spasmodically, the
> cord is jerked from the wall), otherwise you could cause yourself
> serious injury or death.
> If you are pleased with the result, and want more, you can attach one
> of the "electrodes" to your nipples or genitals for that special
> "National Security Frisson".  I refer to this as Jeff's DIY "Enhanced"
> ES Brain Cleansing.

Wow!  Did you make your fortune packaging this technique to help others
achieve ideological change?  ; )  And have you tested this method yet on
yourself?  Perhaps you did, but too many times...

> >
> > A similar war fought by Russia or China would have had a Muslim death
> toll
> > ten times (or a hundred times...) what we have had due to mass
> executions,
> > concentration/labor camps, the firebombing of entire cities, starvation,
> > rape, body organ stealing, disease, and death march deportations.

Jeff Davis wrote:

> Not to mention puppies set on fire, dildoes in the shape Pirogis and
> egg rolls, and toilet paper with faces of American presidents printed
> one to a sheet.   Aaarggggh!!!  those evil commies, is there no limit
> to their depravity??!!

It all seems fun and games until they come for you.  I guess the war crimes
committed by Russia in Afghanistan, and the murder and rape perpetrated by
China on Tibet, just doesn't matter...

> > The
> > United States has tried, at least up to a point, to fight humanely.

Jeff Davis wrote:

> And what point is that, the point at which they cross the Iraqi border?

You really need to start a radio show with Al Franken and Michael Moore.

> > America has it's definite shortcomings,
> A vile slander!  Off to Guantanamo with him for the international
> waterboarding finals!

LOL  No, you have not heard the latest about U.S. interrogators, because now
we try the "I want to be your friend and here are some cookies" approach.
But if I get put on an international flight then I'm in serious trouble. Or
I should say when *you* are put on one...  ; )

> >  but at least we have values and
> > principles to aspire to
> Or hide behind, until the veil is stripped away by al Jazeera and the
> blogosphere.  Why, oh why won't they just learn how to say "How high?"
> All we are saying is give American exceptionalism a chance.

Oh, yes...  The bastion of journalistic integrity known as al Jazeera! lol

> >(despite sometimes veering off in the wrong
> > direction, until course corrections are made)

Jeff Davis wrote:

> Despite sometimes veering off in the right
> direction, until course corrections are made

You are the total cynic...  But I envision you at your computer keyboard
right now with a big bottle of Jack Daniels (mostly empty at this point).

> > instead of merely always
> > pursuing power for it's own sake and with no concern for human life and
> > liberty, which is the approach of our rivals.

Jeff Davis wrote:

> I don't know.  Sounds an awful lot like the approach of the US political
> class.

I think you are quite the cynic, and at least we have a generally free press
and open society.  But keep in mind, what level of journalistic and public
free expression do they have in Russia or China?  And the answer is vastly
less than the United States.

> >
> > At least in the cases of the Taliban and Al Queda, we are trying to root
> out
> > very vicious organizations that delight in crimes against humanity and
> who
> > want to cripple Western civilization.

Jeff Davis writes:

> Yeah, yeah.   And set puppies on fire, make all women look like Ernest
> Borgnine, make baseball illegal unless you wear a tutu, force
> Republicans to pretend that they're straight, etc

That is only the icing on the cake.  Actually, they want to set kittens on
fire, make American football illegal and replace it with soccer, and have
separate airport rest rooms for Republican politicians!  But I must say they
think Ernest Borgnine is the ideal of  feminine beauty and so they at
least mean well in that category.   : )

> >  Yes, it's terrible that so many
> > innocent Muslims have died in this war, but often their own people (the
> > insurgents), hide amongst them and use these unfortunate souls as cover
> > & impromptu human shields.

Jeff Davis wrote:

> It's called defending their neighborhood.  They live there.
"Hey, Achmed, I'm bored today."  "Why, yes, Abdul, so am I, and low on
money..."  "Well, Achmed, so why don't we get a big cash bonus from a
militia recruiter and shoot at American troops today!"  "Great idea, my
friend!"  "Let's go!!"

Jeff Davis wrote:

> The "human shields" canard is just standard, lame (but nonetheless
> effective) pentagon blame shifting.They much prefer (though they ever
> so deeply regret) killing civilians by the hundreds than risking the
> lives of grunts in house to house fighting.
>                  ****************************************
I bet the parents, wives and kids of those grunts are grateful to get to see
them again and not attend their funeral.  Yes, the Iraqi innocents have just
as much right to living.  War is hell and sometimes/often America does not
live up to it's principles.

What I find ironic is the number of Europeans (or those who were at least
born and raised there) who grind their teeth at the tyranny of America in
the Middle East, fighting amongst Arabs.  But yet when in *their own
backyard* they had Muslims being massacred and raped by Serbians, etc., they
barely raised a finger to help.

Jeff Davis wrote:

> John, I feel badly about taking you to task so harshly, but it had to
> be done.  I hope you will forgive me.  I know your heart's in the
> right place.
> Best, Jeff Davis
Jeff, I remember fondly our Extro 5 conversations and I know you are a
very good guy.  But I still want to believe the United States is not rotten,
or at least better than you think it is.

A quote:

> "Enjoying being insulting is a youthful corruption of power. You lose
> your taste for it when you realize how hard people try, how much they
> mind, and how long they remember."
>                          Martin Amis
>  _______________________________________________

A quote many people on this list need to keep in mind (including me).

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